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Default May 22, 2019 at 04:07 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by octoberful View Post
No one here did this to themself.

Though it's true we seek what we need, the problems happen when the therapist doesn't know how to recognize and manage their own transferences and then engage with your patterns. Outside of therapy, you might expect it, but not with therapists. They are supposed to recognize these dynamics and deal with them appropriately before the consequences become catostrophic.

It's not the client's fault. I realize you have your own perspective, but it's sad to see some you blaming yourself.
When I and others with a tendency to self-blame and take (over) responsibility for what goes on, to be an adult child in situations where our needs aren't being met -- interacting with therapists who need/want to be seen as "helpers" can be a real trap. I thought I was doing something good for myself, that would get me to a better place in life, but all I was doing was going round and round on the therapists' wheel. Makes me feel pretty nauseated, now. And maybe that what is needed -- throw that stuff up -- the over-responsibility, the swallowing c**p that can't be digested (because it's fake and not real). Ugh!

Pretty miserable feeling, though, going through it. . .Will it ever end?

Last edited by here today; May 22, 2019 at 05:21 AM..
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Default May 22, 2019 at 07:08 AM
  #162
In a way, the human condition comes out in therapy, intensified to the nth degree. Whatever unfillableness, longing, memories of violence, awareness of mutability and fear of impermanence we have, whatever fragilities, are summoned from the unconscious while our defenses against them are dismantled. The cliche of therapists is one can only take a client as far as one has been oneself. It becomes dangerous when you have a trauma client in the hands of an inexperienced clinician or someone with a personality disorder matched to a therapist with secure attachment and training in CBT only or a SU client with a burned out and spiritually exhausted T who phones it in for the requisite 45 minutes. Poor fits and mismatches not just between client needs and therapist, but even between modalities of practice make it more of a gamble than it should be, and a drastic gamble for those with SH SUI and psychic pain on an excruciating level. It is a conundrum bc those new to therapy do not know who and what they need, and not all therapists seem self aware about their limits . I still think healing can take place within the client-t relationship if the t has done his/her own work , feels a sense of calling/ meaningfulness about the work, and has depth and breadth of training relevant to the case .

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Default May 22, 2019 at 07:25 AM
  #163
I would encourage you to re-read your interpretations of your therapist's silence and consider three questions: 1) how can I possibly know what was inside her head, her feelings or thoughts or intentions?; 2) if I can accept that I can't possibly know what's inside her head from her silence, how can she possibly know what's going on with me?; and 3) what is the most benign way to understand why a therapist might be silent in response to a client's silence? (one possible benign answer: because she's trying to give you space and time to bring to the surface what you need to).
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Default May 22, 2019 at 09:46 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Forgetmenot07 View Post
I really want to see my responsibility in this though...
I like this, too, in most situations of life. I personally do not tend to agree with views that, in therapy, the client can do whatever and everything should be the Ts responsibility to keep together, tolerate everything etc. Here we mostly talk about adult clients in outpatient services, so not so severely impaired individuals who are unable to make basic judgments and see their side of the construct. Even in the context of therapy that does encourage certain feelings of dependency etc in people that are prone to that or find that hierarchy emotionally appealing. I also do not believe that only people with seriously unmet needs and early life traumas can fall in the trap of such dependencies, it is much more complex IMO, and I often find it frustrating and annoying how simplistic the "therapeutic interpretations" can be. They can easily make people chase concepts and interpretations that have little or no relevance to their unique situation and history.

In any case, I do believe it is very healthy to look at these situations from various angles, including how our (the clients') own limitations distort and drive an experience. This can also help draw better boundaries and not accept any BS Ts or, more generally, the therapy industry are pushing ordinarily. Plus try to stop attempting to mind-read or except that anyone can do that (to Anne's point above).
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Default May 22, 2019 at 10:16 AM
  #165
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Here we mostly talk about adult clients in outpatient services, so not so severely impaired individuals who are unable to make basic judgments and see their side of the construct.
Transference, including projections, severely distort reality as do defense mechanisms so often people absolutely do not see their side of the construct. This is also true for those who did not have certain trauma. With thick transference, people literally see what they need or expect or want to see rather than reality.

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I really want to see my responsibility in this though...
This is why I support neutral Ts, because it allows everything to come to light and be examined so people can see their responsibilities and change. For Ts who are not trained in transference, the T engages in the client's patterns and the 2 act out rather than look at the patterns. If you are acting it out, you are likely not seeing it.

This is also why a certain amount of insight is needed to do psychoanalytic therapy. If you don't have an observing ego despite everything surfacing, the client is contraindicated for the therapy. It's a known limitation.
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Default May 22, 2019 at 10:43 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by octoberful View Post
Transference, including projections, severely distort reality as do defense mechanisms so often people absolutely do not see their side of the construct. This is also true for those who did not have certain trauma. With thick transference, people literally see what they need or expect or want to see rather than reality.

This is why I support neutral Ts, because it allows everything to come to light and be examined so people can see their responsibilities and change. For Ts who are not trained in transference, the T engages in the client's patterns and the 2 act out rather than look at the patterns. If you are acting it out, you are likely not seeing it.

This is also why a certain amount of insight is needed to do psychoanalytic therapy. If you don't have an observing ego despite everything surfacing, the client is contraindicated for the therapy. It's a known limitation.
Well, this definitely reflects a psychoanalytic kind of view but not every approach or T uses that heavily and ego strength/insightfulness are not the only limiting factors to benefit from that pure form. I also personally believe it is perfectly possible to see something quite clearly and still act out in the moment. Could state my experience with addiction, for example. There was nothing unconscious about that for many years in the end. I also think similar is true for many other forms of dependency - there isn't always a mysterious, interpersonal etc reason behind that other than craving something that feels pleasant and rewarding in the moment and impulsively deciding to act on it in spite of more rational considerations and knowing it is not in our best interest. It can be simple biology related to how desire, motivation, gratification and reinforcement work. I think it is possible to have very clear and accurate insight/understanding but not adjusting actions to always match that. A form of cognitive dissonance if you will. I think that sort of conflict can result in some of the most severe states of frustration, self-hate, disappointment etc - knowing what the right things are and yet being unable to align actions with them. Limited willpower to regulate actions appropriately. I think this type of dissonance and turmoil can also be a great catalyst to change but that can take a while, and IMO it is usually not more insight that is needed to finally achieve that type of change.
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Default May 22, 2019 at 11:25 AM
  #167
I agree about the part about transference. Ideally a therapist can recognize it and NOT engage in it - thus not allowing their counter-transference to influence their behavior. Unfortunately, therapists are fallible humans who can very easily be drawn into behaving poorly.

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Default May 22, 2019 at 12:21 PM
  #168
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I also personally believe it is perfectly possible to see something quite clearly and still act out in the moment. Could state my experience with addiction, for example.

I think it is possible to have very clear and accurate insight/understanding but not adjusting actions to always match that.
Yes, I agree with this and have experienced this a lot too but personally, by the time I worked through my transferences, I was surprised at how much I didn't see and wasn't aware of. It was truly amazing.

I also see it in others outside of therapy very frequently, including people with no known trauma history. This can include someone at work relating to me as if I was their mother. Everyone has distortions regardless of what approach you view. The defense mechanisms and transference exists outside of psychoanalytic practitioners. Denial, repression, dissociation, etc. prevents people from 'seeing' quite often--this is common.

The opposite happens too-if you have a good T who doesn't engage in your patterns or enmesh, the client can get very angry or distressed and quit, ending badly. If you have relationships that follow a certain pattern and outcome, and the T doesn't follow the usual or desired pattern, then it can be extremely disconcerting but still be outside of one's awareness. So damage can be done regardless of therapist skill, so I am acknowledging that possibility here.
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Default May 22, 2019 at 12:44 PM
  #169
You may be interested in this as it's one concept I have in mind in terms of thick transference and inability to see.

I've always said idealizing transference is the same as falling in love outside of therapy. This article (non-psychoanalytic) explains how the idealization (transference) blocks your sight of things. This happens in therapy every day but tends to be stronger in analytic therapy. That transference distorts reality is so common that there are sayings, poems, hundreds of songs, novels, etc., written about this concept because of how common it is. "Love is blind", "blinded by love". This is the exact same thing as transference.

The Science of Being Blinded by Love

Science Proves that Love is Blind

Maternal/child and romantic/adult are not mutually exclusive either as they are more similar than different. The articles talk about that a little bit too. These are all psychoanalytic concepts revived. I think it all has evolutionary purposes.

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The scientific evidence further validates Ben-Ze’ev’s point. In 2004, the BBC reported on a study that found that the brain scans of young mothers looking at pictures of their own children were similar to the scans of people’s brains who were romantically in love. “The researchers found that both romantic love and maternal love produce the same effect on the brain. They suppress neural activity associated with critical social assessment of other people and negative emotions,” the BBC reported.

Whether it’s love blinding you to a ****** diaper or a ****** person, bottom line, it blinds: As lead researcher Andrea Bartels explained to the BBC, the study concluded that love deactivates brain waves that we normally use for criticizing a person’s behavior, while strengthening the parts involved with the brain’s reward system.
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Default May 22, 2019 at 01:18 PM
  #170
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. . . I personally do not tend to agree with views that, in therapy, the client can do whatever and everything should be the Ts responsibility to keep together, tolerate everything etc. Here we mostly talk about adult clients in outpatient services, so not so severely impaired individuals who are unable to make basic judgments and see their side of the construct. . .
You and I clearly disagree. I did the best I could for many years, eventually acting out somewhat because that was the best/only way that I had in those moments to try to communicate, to allow unknown parts of me to be, to learn what was going on with them, etc.

I hired the therapists to help me with those parts -- that's what I understood their job to be. If it wasn't that, what was it?

If/when the client is disabled in some aspect of their functioning, even if they are able sometimes to make basic judgments about some things, then I definitely do see it as the therapist's responsibility to try to keep things together. And to help the client get some better understanding of what is going on with themselves. How therapists are supposed to do that I don't know. But it is something that I think was reasonable of me to expect from them. I don't expect it any more and hence am not going back to a therapist -- I no longer expect that any of them have any ability to help me with this stuff.
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Default May 22, 2019 at 01:30 PM
  #171
I know many people here would disagree with me (and I know this issue keeps coming up in different forms), that's why this forum is good, to get a variety of opinions and experiences IMO. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing, including with the fact that it is hard to find universally applicable truths and practices for these things.
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Default May 22, 2019 at 01:32 PM
  #172
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. . .
This is also why a certain amount of insight is needed to do psychoanalytic therapy. If you don't have an observing ego despite everything surfacing, the client is contraindicated for the therapy. It's a known limitation.
I think I'm fairly insightful cognitively but probably not so much emotionally. A lot of my emotional life was dark or cut off for a long time. What responsibility does a therapist have to determine whether or not a client has an observing ego sufficient to do the work? And if the client doesn't, what therapy is appropriate? Schema therapy, maybe? Have psychologists done any research into how an observing ego might be developed in someone who doesn't have one? Seems like it could be a limitation in a lot of that person's life, so worthwhile to try to figure out ways to help, possibly?

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. . .if you have a good T who doesn't engage in your patterns or enmesh, the client can get very angry or distressed and quit, ending badly. If you have relationships that follow a certain pattern and outcome, and the T doesn't follow the usual or desired pattern, then it can be extremely disconcerting but still be outside of one's awareness. So damage can be done regardless of therapist skill, so I am acknowledging that possibility here.
Sounds like a pretty dangerous situation for clients.. As I've said before, I think more and better warnings and information about this should be given to clients before they consent to therapy. In addition, I think therapists should try to determine if a client is sufficiently realistic to process the information that is given to them. If they are feeling desperate for help, then their ability to process the information and come to a realistic, reasonable decision may be impaired, in addition to other deficiencies they may have. Is that a therapist's responsibility? Legally, maybe not. Ethically? Maybe a different question.
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Default May 22, 2019 at 01:39 PM
  #173
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I know many people here would disagree with me (and I know this issue keeps coming up in different forms), that's why this forum is good, to get a variety of opinions and experiences IMO. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing, including with the fact that it is hard to find universally applicable truths and practices for these things.
You have not had the experience that I have, and so I can understand if you don't, and can't, understand where I am coming from. And vice versa.
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Default May 22, 2019 at 01:56 PM
  #174
I just wanted to say I LOVE this thread!

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Default May 22, 2019 at 02:22 PM
  #175
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I would encourage you to re-read your interpretations of your therapist's silence and consider three questions: 1) how can I possibly know what was inside her head, her feelings or thoughts or intentions?; 2) if I can accept that I can't possibly know what's inside her head from her silence, how can she possibly know what's going on with me?; and 3) what is the most benign way to understand why a therapist might be silent in response to a client's silence? (one possible benign answer: because she's trying to give you space and time to bring to the surface what you need to).
Thanks for challenging me,
I think I know what you are trying to say. Nobody is a mind reader and I should not expect my T to know how I feel just like that neither should I make assumption in interpreting her silence. The key should be an open and honest coversation but what if this is the inability to do so is the problem itself? I don't fully agree with you because the situation that I described has a 5 year context which should not be neglected. it wasn't too strangers trying to reach each others minds, She probably recognises some pattersn of my behaviour and should have responded in a more more empathic way.
1. I cannot know what was inside her head unless she tells me but communication is more than the words people use, there are a lot of non verbal clues and mainly context. I never said she must have thought all those thoughts but this is how her behavious made me FEEL, this is how I reacted to it. she wasnt maintaing eye contact, looked impatient and was rushed to finish before time was up. Even after I said I don't think I can bring myself to talk anymore there was no prompting just a quick: 'so when are we meeting next'. A very cold reaction. Towards the end I muttered " i cant do it' and she asked if I want to have the next session at all. Isnt this a massive overreaction on her side? I don't understand what she was trying to prove with her firmness but all I can think of (again my intepratation only) that it was a power struggle. I can't imagine that with so many emails she really had no clue what was going on, and even if she didn't there are better ways to react eg. ASK a question. My point is that I asked in emails for her to initiate the conversation and repeadly wrote how difficult it is for me to open up about our relatioship for a few weeks in a row so this is not that difficult to figure out.

2. I think I answered this in the first question. I wrote many emails soon after previous sessions to express my disappoitment with not being able to talk our relationship through. Even if she didn't know what I was directly reacting to on Monday there were still more than enough clues to at least be more curiuous and any question. Silence can be very poweful if you get stuck.

3. This is an option too... but if so it wasn't very helfpul to me. I have no idea where to start next week. Writing another email seems counterproductive and I worry it will not be mentioned at all. Its also strange because I FEEL like I crossed some kind of line. I wrote a couple of emails since our session and as far as I know she has not read them. She always checked all my messages before.

Am I being too defensive? I suppose i won't know the answers unless we talk about it next week. Not sure if I can make it happen!
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Default May 22, 2019 at 02:29 PM
  #176
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I just wanted to say I LOVE this thread!
I agree, I am just limited with time to reply in depth to more! are there any therapist on this forum? Would be good to see the other side of the coin!
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Default May 22, 2019 at 02:41 PM
  #177
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I like this, too, in most situations of life. I personally do not tend to agree with views that, in therapy, the client can do whatever and everything should be the Ts responsibility to keep together, tolerate everything etc. Here we mostly talk about adult clients in outpatient services, so not so severely impaired individuals who are unable to make basic judgments and see their side of the construct. Even in the context of therapy that does encourage certain feelings of dependency etc in people that are prone to that or find that hierarchy emotionally appealing. I also do not believe that only people with seriously unmet needs and early life traumas can fall in the trap of such dependencies, it is much more complex IMO, and I often find it frustrating and annoying how simplistic the "therapeutic interpretations" can be. They can easily make people chase concepts and interpretations that have little or no relevance to their unique situation and history.

In any case, I do believe it is very healthy to look at these situations from various angles, including how our (the clients') own limitations distort and drive an experience. This can also help draw better boundaries and not accept any BS Ts or, more generally, the therapy industry are pushing ordinarily. Plus try to stop attempting to mind-read or except that anyone can do that (to Anne's point above).
I agree, after all it is two adults sitting in the room, and even if money is the currency its not T responsibilty to tolerate all impulses and meet unmet longings. When I read this forum I realise Ts should be better trained to recognise when the depenency or focus on them (rather than problems we bring to therapy) get too strong. Instead of leaving it till last minute, when its too late and we are 'hooked' and then cutting some sort of privilages (hugging, emails, phone calls, extra sessions etc) the should maybe gently make the patient aware of their observation or promt us to look inwardly at whats happening to us and our feelings?
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Default May 22, 2019 at 02:50 PM
  #178
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Maybe she doesn't see that as her job? Only to be a tree, and then your feelings, and actions, come up on their own? But years and years of that didn't help me -- there needed to be some others, to be with me, to witness me, something. . .I'm not sure exactly what.

For me, it has something to do with boundaries and being a person and being a separate person with some other separate persons. . .very hard to describe. And maybe very hard for therapy to try to help with. But they need to do a better job, IMO. .
I wish I knew better what you ment because it sounds vaguely familiar. Being witnessed, seen, heard . Is there a common denimnator with all of us who get attached? - maybe loneliness? lack of strong emotional bonds irl, insecurity that prevents us from being more authentic? attachment style?
its fascinating how some of us are resistant to this lure and others even though cognitively strong get sucked in...
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Default May 22, 2019 at 02:53 PM
  #179
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I agree, after all it is two adults sitting in the room, and even if money is the currency its not T responsibilty to tolerate all impulses and meet unmet longings. When I read this forum I realise Ts should be better trained to recognise when the depenency or focus on them (rather than problems we bring to therapy) get too strong. Instead of leaving it till last minute, when its too late and we are 'hooked' and then cutting some sort of privilages (hugging, emails, phone calls, extra sessions etc) the should maybe gently make the patient aware of their observation or promt us to look inwardly at whats happening to us and our feelings?
I guess most Ts try to do this regularly in some form but it might get muddled in the rest of the experience. This is why, if you think the way you describe (it sounds similar to how I think about it), the best strategy is to take the introspection and examination into your own hands, also the boundary setting. That way it's kinda "take what works and leave the rest". Easier said than done but that is what I mean by the client's side, if you are someone who likes to take responsibility for that.

There are definitely those Ts who foster dependency and those idealistic views about the T-client relationship and they probably will not encourage limiting/regulating it directly. I think many of them also believe this approach will bring out important patterns more, to be examined. I believe that can be very true but also that it can create a parallel, mostly or totally artificial universe that can be irrelevant to our normal lives. But discriminating between the two (i.e. when it is some important pattern, transference etc and when it is merely the product of the structure of therapy) can be tricky. I also definitely got caught up in that confusion in the beginning.
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Default May 22, 2019 at 02:59 PM
  #180
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My point is that I asked in emails for her to initiate the conversation and repeadly wrote how difficult it is for me to open up about our relatioship for a few weeks in a row so this is not that difficult to figure out.
I think if you look at it from her perspective, whatever you write in emails is disconnected in time and space and the intimacy of being together in the therapy room. How is she to know that by the time you show up for session, this is still the way it is for you?

I guess I see it as your job to say, perhaps at the beginning of a session, "I wrote in an email last week that I would like for you to initiate the conversation about ___. Can you do that?"

Are you saying that you've been seeing this therapist for five years and you still can't say basic things in session? If so, I think it's time to move on.
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