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Default May 29, 2019 at 05:23 PM
  #21
I personally never sought or accepted any kind of guru, the only way I could see young myself getting enmeshed would be a romantic affair and perhaps mixed with some work collaboration. I did that several times in my youth with teachers/mentors and all of them were decent people and good relationships, no harm whatsoever and quite a bit of mutual gain. We treated each-other as equals. With a narcissistic/guru-like therapist it would never last long though, I disliked those kinds of people even when I was very young, so I can't see myself with someone like Ike... my "weakness" used to be smart, accomplished, creative and often quite enigmatic people. But with decent morals. Usually with quite some similar personality traits and interests to myself, which typically comes with a need for independence and not desiring authorities/followers/dependency, more equal but sufficiently autonomous collaborators, friends, advisors, mentees etc. I can imagine mistaking the enigmatic nature of an introverted, somewhat eccentric creative person with unique charisma who is not averse to risks with a paranoid, secretive, purposefully manipulative and only superficially accomplished person who would take unethical risks but no responsibility, for a while when I was very young though. I definitely had an issue with sometimes confusing/separating my professional and romantic interests when I was younger and needed quite a few rounds of trial and error to learn to identify these different things. I imagine someone who has people-pleasing, serving tendencies and a strong desire to join/belong to some powerful bigger structure can end up in a version of that confusion as well quite easily. We definitely bring these patterns from early life and it usually takes quite some experience to change them, if ever.
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Default May 29, 2019 at 08:32 PM
  #22
I’m not in a place where I could listen to a podcast like this, but I did read about it and find the concept frightening yet entirely believable.

I over-extended myself to pay my therapist for nearly a decade of services (approaching six figures). The majority of what I paid for was to feed an insatiable emotional addiction to therapy. At certain points during treatment I would have done nearly anything she asked. It was very scary to witness my own vulnerability and am grateful to have gotten out as in tact as I did.
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Default May 29, 2019 at 08:49 PM
  #23
Admitting to myself I was not only hoodwinked, but assisted in my own scamming was a major part of the pain.

....On a different topic, I wonder if the biggest victim, Marty, is on the autism spectrum. An Aspergers family member similarly was scammed by a caregiver.

(I found him better care and a restraining order stopped the exploitation.)
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Default May 30, 2019 at 05:10 AM
  #24
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It is hard for me to comprehend how someone can get so enmeshed for so long but I guess it's only me as I fail to relate to many other types of long-term interpersonal enmeshment and dependency also reported on this forum. I've grown to accept that it is just something I will probably never fully comprehend but can be very real/serious for many people (just like my substance addiction was for me).
i have such mixed feelings about reading your response, because on the one hand, i'm quite envious of those who've had the wherewithal or 'luck of the draw' to never have to experience the powerlessness, shame, fear and overall mind Fck experience of being enmeshed with someone, like i was with my ex-T for many years. i don't think i would ever wish this experience upon my worst enemy. but on the other hand, i now can look at this from a new perspective and have reached the point where i understand and embrace just how empowering and healing that this sh*%ty experince has been overall for me . as difficult as it was, there is no denying that this experince has been one of the main catalyst to my change and personal growth to a more fulfilling life. fortunately, on most days, i can honestly say that i'm quite content with this...it is what it is.
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Default May 30, 2019 at 05:32 AM
  #25
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. . .I have been struck by Marty's own involvement as well. It is hard for me to comprehend how someone can get so enmeshed for so long but I guess it's only me as I fail to relate to many other types of long-term interpersonal enmeshment and dependency also reported on this forum. I've grown to accept that it is just something I will probably never fully comprehend but can be very real/serious for many people (just like my substance addiction was for me).



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I personally never sought or accepted any kind of guru, the only way I could see young myself getting enmeshed would be a romantic affair and perhaps mixed with some work collaboration. I did that several times in my youth with teachers/mentors and all of them were decent people and good relationships, no harm whatsoever and quite a bit of mutual gain. We treated each-other as equals. With a narcissistic/guru-like therapist it would never last long though, I disliked those kinds of people even when I was very young, so I can't see myself with someone like Ike... my "weakness" used to be smart, accomplished, creative and often quite enigmatic people. But with decent morals. Usually with quite some similar personality traits and interests to myself, which typically comes with a need for independence and not desiring authorities/followers/dependency, more equal but sufficiently autonomous collaborators, friends, advisors, mentees etc. I can imagine mistaking the enigmatic nature of an introverted, somewhat eccentric creative person with unique charisma who is not averse to risks with a paranoid, secretive, purposefully manipulative and only superficially accomplished person who would take unethical risks but no responsibility, for a while when I was very young though. I definitely had an issue with sometimes confusing/separating my professional and romantic interests when I was younger and needed quite a few rounds of trial and error to learn to identify these different things. I imagine someone who has people-pleasing, serving tendencies and a strong desire to join/belong to some powerful bigger structure can end up in a version of that confusion as well quite easily. We definitely bring these patterns from early life and it usually takes quite some experience to change them, if ever.
The similarities you note between substance addiction and romantic/sexual affairs and cult-like following and dependency on therapists, and similar gurus, is important, I think, to a better understanding of the Marty-like phenomena.

About 12 years ago I was having terrible difficulty with what seemed then, and still seems, an internal addiction to beating myself up emotionally. Shame, contempt, an almost sadistic haughtiness directed at myself. It served to numb out the shame and contempt I was feeling from other sources in my life at the time, perhaps imaginary, perhaps memories, but still present. I hadn't gotten any help with this from therapy, therapists didn't even seem to see this as the big problem that, to me, it was -- perhaps I didn't emphasize it in my therapy, so perhaps it was hard for them to comprehend. AND perhaps they had never been taught about it?

I consciously, therefore, chose to start drinking before I went to sleep, to numb out the incessant self-directed aggression since there was nothing I could do internally to turn it off. I didn't become addicted although I did overuse alcohol for some years. And I have overcome, finally, a lot of my original addiction to self-directed emotional aggression.

I got the idea, frankly, from reading something in one of Heinz Kohut's books about the difference between narcissistic behavior disorders, like substance addiction, and narcissistic personality disorders. I was never diagnosed with, and don't think I have/had, a narcissistic personality disorder as currently defined by the DSM. But I do think there are things that got cross-wired or stymied in my personality development, probably due to trauma, one of which occurred in a hospital when I was 3. (That one for sure, not my parents' fault.)

As you wrote in another post:

Quote:
I think many of these dictator-like Ts are deeply insecure deep down and often are drawn to the profession because they learn they would be able to manipulate and take advantage of confused and vulnerable clients. I am pretty convinced that anyone who want to be cult leaders and dictators fall either in that category or have psychopathic tendencies.
there is something about narcissism, maybe idealism, that seems to me involved in situations like Marty and Ike that could be interesting and possibly helpful to people, eventually, to investigate further.
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Default May 30, 2019 at 05:38 AM
  #26
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Fortunately, friends' guidance saved me from my bully therapists, so, unlike Marty, I wasn't isolated. Marty also didn't have the internet when the relationship started. Reinforcement is critical when disentangling from a cult, I think.
i agree.... for me being able to find others on the internet who had or were going through something similar and sharing their stories is what gave me strength and helped me to start seeing the relationship with my T and therapy in a new light.

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I think, and an area where many Ts are definitely in the wrong, for example when they try to enforce that clients don't see another T in parallel (so a second opinion) and don't take the content of therapy elsewhere. It can serve them well when they try to manipulate and dominate but blocks reality checks.

I think many of these dictator-like Ts are deeply insecure deep down and often are drawn to the profession because they learn they would be able to manipulate and take advantage of confused and vulnerable clients. I am pretty convinced that anyone who want to be cult leaders and dictators fall either in that category or have psychopathic tendencies.
i experienced some of this with my ex-T. one example is when i told him about PC and another forum i was visiting, he wasn't too supportive of the idea and he even made an entry in my session notes , which i read years later after requesting them, to how he didn't think it was a good idea for me to visit the support forums. he knew i had a very minuscule support system in real life and that i found the forums helpful because it was one of the only places i felt safe that i could talk to others about my therapy and him. another example was when i wanted to seek out an alternative modality of therapy (neurofeedback) to help with my truama symptoms when talk therapy had stalled and my symptoms were becoming worse. he was hesitant to the idea, but i didn't care and was going to do it anyways with or without his blessing because i was absolutely desperate to get better. i didn't quite understand why he would not want that for me in spite of his own ego, but like you said, i reckon a lot of that came down to his deep insecurities.
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Default May 30, 2019 at 05:49 AM
  #27
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I over-extended myself to pay my therapist for nearly a decade of services (approaching six figures). The majority of what I paid for was to feed an insatiable emotional addiction to therapy. At certain points during treatment I would have done nearly anything she asked. It was very scary to witness my own vulnerability and am grateful to have gotten out as in tact as I did.


it's been incredibly difficult, shameful and scary to admit how enmeshed and 'in awed' i had become to this one person....unlike anyone else ever before
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Default May 30, 2019 at 09:08 AM
  #28
Some of the strongest people I know become mushy and child-like in the thrall of an “omniscient” personality. They cast logic aside and want to believe.
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Default Jun 09, 2019 at 12:48 AM
  #29
i finally had the opportunity to listen to the 5th installment today. all I can say is 'yay for Marty!' 😊

glad to hear that he finally had enough of Ike and his manipulation and that Marty found the courage to stand up for himself.
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Default Jun 09, 2019 at 03:07 AM
  #30
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i finally had the opportunity to listen to the 5th installment today. all I can say is 'yay for Marty!' 😊

glad to hear that he finally had enough of Ike and his manipulation and that Marty found the courage to stand up for himself.
I felt the same way about Marty. He sounds like he handled his exit well.

I had a bumpy separation though, like Marty’s shrink, mine tried to manipulate me into staying. My self-recrimination was large, realizing how duped I was by therapists. I can’t imagine how Marty feels.

I read in an author interview that Marty has an active grievance, and the psychiatrist still practices. I searched the internet for professional discussion of the podcast and found none.
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Default Jun 09, 2019 at 10:51 AM
  #31
Article in the tabloid New York Post has a bit more information.
How a celebrity shrink allegedly conned himself into patients' wills
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Default Jun 09, 2019 at 12:19 PM
  #32
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Some of the strongest people I know become mushy and child-like in the thrall of an “omniscient” personality. They cast logic aside and want to believe.
I have seen this, too. I think part of it can be that those people never actually had a healthy leader they could rely on and trust but they crave it deep down (similar: I know some extremely ambitious, self-sufficient and successful people who became wildly religious at some point in their adult lives).

I have yet to hear Parts 4 and 5, will listen on my commute to work when I usually enjoy podcasts. It is still incredible to me how long such a spell and enmeshment can last and what exactly cements it so much that is can be so persistent. One way I have experienced association that ended up being too long and not so profitable for me was working for an organization that made it quite easy for me to get away with my issues and still do pretty well. But, in some ways, in blocked certain kinds of development for me because, in order to get away with those things and not practice better discipline, I had to comply with certain roles and behind-the-scenes maneuvers that were, at the minimum, ambivalent for me. Lots of complicated financial transactions involved. This whole story is very interesting and helpful for me because I live in the same environment and deal with power-hungry individuals and complicated political manipulations all the time. In the mental health field. It is a great reminder to be vigilant.

The fact that the shrink is still practicing - these podcasts just came out quite recently. Institutions, licensing parties etc won't just get rid of someone quickly without a lot of investigation, and if the guy is in a powerful position in that kind of climate, it is likely that he will find a way unscathed or with relatively minimal damage. If not, he will probably just retire and continue to enjoy the "benefits" of such a career.
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Default Jun 09, 2019 at 01:55 PM
  #33
Xynesthesia2, I think every institution, bond or alliance has its own reality and values, for good or bad. My bad therapy experiences have taught me occasionally to assess if I've compromised myself away in my allegiances. I think this is especially important with authoritarian leadership. (I admire work colleagues who could be cooperative but not cowed. )

It appears the shrink continues unfazed. I'd hope this story would generate professional soul-searching like the Daphne Merkin NYTimes story did. There appears evidence of egregious boundary violations. If this shrink's behavior is deemed acceptable, this gives me less confidence in the profession.
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Default Jun 09, 2019 at 10:47 PM
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I had a bumpy separation though, like Marty’s shrink, mine tried to manipulate me into staying. My self-recrimination was large, realizing how duped I was by therapists. I can’t imagine how Marty feels.

I read in an author interview that Marty has an active grievance, and the psychiatrist still practices. I searched the internet for professional discussion of the podcast and found none.
When i was ready to start having the conversation about termination and asked what the process looked like, my T was quick to point out all my unfinished business i had instead of focusing on any of the positive progress i had made over the years. this really bothered me and my initial reaction after that conversation left a feeling that he was wanting to hold me back and didn't want to encourage me to end 'our' therapy anytime soon. it felt manipulative. and the day that I told him i was ready to officially end, he again responded looking at the negatives, trying to convince me there was till plenty of work to do. i told him he was correct, that there will always be issues to address, but i felt confident to address them with out having to pay for therapy. if he wanted me to continue with therapy with him, i was willing to continue, but i no longer would be paying for it...no surprise, he wasn't too keen to take me up on that offer.

i can't believe that this shrink is still practicing. hopefully that will change as more people hear this story. I'm not too surprised to hear that there is not much of a buzz about this story among the professionals. i suspect they would rather this not get too much press. when the podcast first came out, i saw a reference to it on r/therapists (a reddit sub for therapists) but only a handful of members even commented, which was a bit disappointing.
Anybody listening to The Shrink Next Door podcast? : therapists
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Default Jun 09, 2019 at 11:33 PM
  #35
koru_kiwi, I’m sorry your guy was so manipulative, but it seems like you were up for handling it. I experienced something similar, and it felt he was throwing me under the bus. What vanity.I was firm when I finally left, but trembling on the inside.

I’m glad that someone posted a link on the therapist Reddit, but agree the response was pretty underwhelming. I think there should be a lot for them to unpack.
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Default Jun 10, 2019 at 12:24 AM
  #36
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When i was ready to start having the conversation about termination and asked what the process looked like, my T was quick to point out all my unfinished business i had instead of focusing on any of the positive progress i had made over the years. this really bothered me and my initial reaction after that conversation left a feeling that he was wanting to hold me back and didn't want to encourage me to end 'our' therapy anytime soon. it felt manipulative. and the day that I told him i was ready to officially end, he again responded looking at the negatives, trying to convince me there was till plenty of work to do.
My first T did the same, twice. I terminated after about a bit less than a year, then went back for a couple sessions a year later (he was after me and convinced me) and then I left with a clear message that it was a definitive end and I would never go back. He reacted almost exactly the same way both times, listing his "interpretations" that had really little to do with me and the things he thought should be worked on. The messages also sounded pretty sentimental. Certainly very manipulative and annoying.
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Default Jun 11, 2019 at 05:42 PM
  #37
The sixth and final episode has been posted, though there is the promise of more in reaction to the series. The psychiatrist's blaming and counter charges sound too familiar. In fact a social worker who committed documented insurance fraud described a plaintiff friend the same way: "She wants to punish me."

Rolling Stone just published a story about the podcast.
New Podcast ‘The Shrink Next Door’ Tackles Strange Hamptons Saga – Rolling Stone

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Default Jun 11, 2019 at 07:57 PM
  #38
haven't had a chance to listen to the last podcast yet, but will do so soon. thanks for including the link to the RS article. glad to see some in the media are starting to take an interest in this crazy story. i even saw a brief mention of this podcast in one of my countries main online news outlets last week.
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Default Jun 11, 2019 at 10:24 PM
  #39
I only listened to the intro. I dont need any more evidence that the shrink biz is full of lunatics.

Sounds like something from a Woody Allen movie.
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Default Jun 12, 2019 at 06:00 AM
  #40
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haven't had a chance to listen to the last podcast yet, but will do so soon. thanks for including the link to the RS article. glad to see some in the media are starting to take an interest in this crazy story. i even saw a brief mention of this podcast in one of my countries main online news outlets last week.
The mainstream media coverage has been spotty. Perhaps this is because because rigorous fact checking is particularly important since this guy is still practicing.

There was coverage in the Financial Times ( first I hit a firewall) and the Guardian as well as the N.Y. Post.

Budfox, my situation had a small parallel in that my therapist tried to manipulate me into staying though I’d become very unhappy. I was comforted by reading Ellen Plasil’s Therapist another story about a cult-like therapist. At least she and the others got legal redress.

The Shrink Next Door isn’t your average true crime podcast

A sinister tale from the minds behind Dirty John – podcasts of the week | Television & radio | The Guardian
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