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Old 06-12-2019, 06:33 AM #41
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Default Re: Podcast about horribly Svengali-like shrink

I was googling what's out there publicly about the podcast right now and there are plenty of hits but they aren't very meaningful articles, basically just describing and advertising it mostly. I found a reply on Joe Nocera's Twitter saying "And STILL (apparently) no comment from @nyulangone, despite numerous red flags in the form of a lengthy OPMC investigation and Dr Herschkopf's decision to leave the APA's local and state chapters." But, considering the short time since the podcast has come out, I think it receives quite a lot of publicity. I do believe more serious interrogations take time.

I am very interested in this now, in part because I have colleagues in the Psychiatry area at NYU. Might just ask around myself (but will finish listening to the series first).
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Old 06-12-2019, 07:19 AM #42
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Default Re: Podcast about horribly Svengali-like shrink

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I was googling what's out there publicly about the podcast right now and there are plenty of hits but they aren't very meaningful articles, basically just describing and advertising it mostly. I found a reply on Joe Nocera's Twitter saying "And STILL (apparently) no comment from @nyulangone, despite numerous red flags in the form of a lengthy OPMC investigation and Dr Herschkopf's decision to leave the APA's local and state chapters." But, considering the short time since the podcast has come out, I think it receives quite a lot of publicity. I do believe more serious interrogations take time.

I am very interested in this now, in part because I have colleagues in the Psychiatry area at NYU. Might just ask around myself (but will finish listening to the series first).

Yes, NYC is an auspicious institution to have a kook doctor on its roster. I know they can't cut him loose without due process, but this has to have caused buzz. The patient, Marty and witnesses have plenty of evidence. Worse is how the New York Office of Professional Medical Conduct seems to have file drawered the complaint.
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Old 06-12-2019, 07:57 AM #43
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Default Re: Podcast about horribly Svengali-like shrink

Yes the mental health profession in NYC has many elements akin to a mafia network. It is very had to remain free of it if you want to work maintaining some sort of academic association, can be easier completely self-employed and staying away from all that but then many people feel isolated and dissatisfied. Not going into it but this issue has been a big part of some things I struggle with myself and still haven't made a clear decision, let alone action. Of course it is much more complicated than just thriving or failing as an academic or clinician as the field is intertwined, in many ways, with hardcore money and politics. I can easily imagine why it took so long for Marty to break free, I am certain it is not just emotional factors but the involvement of serious business that he probably could not cut off and resolve without some serious losses as well. Having made those early decisions and investments must have brought consequences for a long time.

My first T actually made that decision to cut ties with most of the psych-related institutions and investors quite early in his career and do everything solo. In that case, I think it just turned him into a greater evil and more dangerous practitioner because there is no one to control him even slightly, except the licensing board I guess, but he seems to be very good at getting rid of accusations of all kinds, amazing good in fact (I know because I tried in smaller ways as well). But going solo did not abolish his enormous need for attention, coupled with a failure of actually producing work good enough to be recognized and appreciated by the academic community (he is just inherently sloppy and also not very smart, I think). So he targets a certain population of clients that are much less likely to scrutinize him. I think he reacted to the conflicts with me so extremely because I do not fall in that population and did not buy his shady maneuvers and manipulations but, instead, told him many things that must have pierced into some of his biggest insecurities. He really produced emotional reactions in response that I had never seen from anyone, very extreme. But I could not do much to formally interrogate him and I also just did not have the desire to engage in such a crap and make life worse for myself. He actually pretty much damaged his own reputation by himself with all the *** he does on the internet. That also shows he is obsessed with attention seeking but not very smart. I expect Ike to be much smarter, given the scale of manipulations he has managed to execute and maintain.
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:16 AM #44
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Default Re: Podcast about horribly Svengali-like shrink

I cant believe how consequence-free this all has been for the pyschiatrist so far. He creates his own reality, then lives in it to his own serious advantage. he is 70 now, so unless he goes to actual jail, the worst that will happen is he will be embarrassed. I doubt he will feel that way though.
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:37 AM #45
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Default Re: Podcast about horribly Svengali-like shrink

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Yes the mental health profession in NYC has many elements akin to a mafia network. It is very had to remain free of it if you want to work maintaining some sort of academic association, can be easier completely self-employed and staying away from all that but then many people feel isolated and dissatisfied. Not going into it but this issue has been a big part of some things I struggle with myself and still haven't made a clear decision, let alone action. Of course it is much more complicated than just thriving or failing as an academic or clinician as the field is intertwined, in many ways, with hardcore money and politics. I can easily imagine why it took so long for Marty to break free, I am certain it is not just emotional factors but the involvement of serious business that he probably could not cut off and resolve without some serious losses as well. Having made those early decisions and investments must have brought consequences for a long time.
Knowing a bit of the NYC culture certain flavors hearing the podcast...NYU...Southampton...a frequently published doctor...celebrity clients. These events happened on an elite level.

I can easily see a practitioner following his notions after a while. Another doctor wonít see the patient with an incorrectly-set broken leg. I also canít say definitively Iíd break from a cult faster than Marty. But Iíve always had people around for feedback and vigilance imparted from an attorney father. But the doctor controlled more than Martyó he intimidated everyone in Martyís business into silence. Then too, the doctorís family apparently joined the exploitation.

I await NYU and NYís OPMC responses. Iíd wager the doctor continues in his rescuer fantasy as other censured clinicians have done before.
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Old 06-12-2019, 10:15 AM #46
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Default Re: Podcast about horribly Svengali-like shrink

Yes definitely on an elite level - that is why it is so hard to scrutinize people like him. Others who have the power to seriously interfere are likely to be embedded in the culture themselves, if not in his empire, then in their own ways.

I really doubt that the psychiatrist would be fazed too much, even if he was investigated via NYU or other professional organizations. A criminal case, of course, may be different, but I imagine he is also well-connected in those domains if he has been able to get away with all this for decades. And, as said above, he is pretty much retirement age now and I don't think even losing his business or a good amount of money would do too much harm to his lifestyle at this point. Clearly he has never been one to worry much about his morals. I have seen a few high profile academics and clinicians fired by their organizations for ethical misconduct (sometimes with criminal elements usually obscured), they may be on some level in the news for a little while but then the case disappears and they typically start doing something else instead of fighting much. I do often wonder what might be going on in the psyche of these kinds of people... how they can live with what to do. I know I would not be able to do it, no matter what sorts of benefits, I would probably kill myself out of guilt and cognitive dissonance. Probably they do not suffer too much dissonance internally - sort of a psychopathic phenotype.
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Old 06-12-2019, 10:23 AM #47
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Default Re: Podcast about horribly Svengali-like shrink

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Yes definitely on an elite level - that is why it is so hard to scrutinize people like him. Others who have the power to seriously interfere are likely to be embedded in the culture themselves, if not in his empire, then in their own ways.

I really doubt that the psychiatrist would be fazed too much, even if he was investigated via NYU or other professional organizations. A criminal case, of course, may be different, but I imagine he is also well-connected in those domains if he has been able to get away with all this for decades. And, as said above, he is pretty much retirement age now and I don't think even losing his business or a good amount of money would do too much harm to his lifestyle at this point. Clearly he has never been one to worry much about his morals. I have seen a few high profile academics and clinicians fired by their organizations for ethical misconduct (sometimes with criminal elements usually obscured), they may be on some level in the news for a little while but then the case disappears and they typically start doing something else instead of fighting much. I do often wonder what might be going on in the psyche of these kinds of people... how they can live with what to do. I know I would not be able to do it, no matter what sorts of benefits, I would probably kill myself out of guilt and cognitive dissonance. Probably they do not suffer too much dissonance internally - sort of a psychopathic phenotype.

I agree with you. I guess he convinced himself, as many practitioners do, that his acting outside of convention was best for his patient. (He also had the alibi he transitioned Marty from patient to business client.) Paradoxically, this guy has extensive writings on religion and ethical issues. That would have fooled me for a while as I'm sure it fooled others.

I'm sure I'd hide if I were subject to that level of public censure. But he continues. His wife is visible online too, pretty as you please.
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Old 06-12-2019, 10:48 AM #48
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Paradoxically, this guy has extensive writings on religion and ethical issues. That would have fooled me for a while as I'm sure it fooled others.
I have seen cases like that and it's not surprising to me, more something very ingrained in human nature and practiced quite frequently in smaller ways. For example, a well-respected and accomplished professor who did seemingly groundbreaking research on the biological factors underlying morality and our intrinsic, unconscious ability to distinguish right and wrong. He was caught to fabricate his data (published in high-impact journals) and eventually fired, his papers retracted etc. But he did that for over a decade. He just seem to have disappeared from the public eye. I also know of professors writing and teaching ethics that were caught and fired from their jobs. And religious leaders doing horrible things.

My first T was an example for those engaging in this kind of duality in smaller ways. I bought into it in the beginning for a few months (I had no experience with therapy then) but it became increasingly clear that he was absolutely not doing what he preached in his media, quite the opposite. He says all the right things about therapy but practices none or very little. That was one of the things I pointed out to him multiple times, one of those things that made him extremely angry and defensive. I said he wasn't very smart, but smart enough to make a whole career based on his natural tendencies and behaviors, turning his crappy acts into theories (mostly copying, he isn't creative enough to make his own) and advertising as therapy techniques. But he compromised his own image by not being able to control himself online and making it clear that those apparent "techniques" are just his effortless, natural behaviors. He also really lost it with me in the end and all the shite was out clear as day. Well, "out" in a small way, mostly between us and a bit on the web... but nothing big. I see now that he advertises quite desperately on/off on the web looking for clients and mentees (he also does supervision) - pretty sure he has had time finding work now.

I think there is a factor of identification in clients who associate with these guys and I've figured it from my own experience. I was originally drawn to my T in a period when my own responsibility and morals were very shaky, I also manipulated my environment a lot to get away with my own compulsions (addiction in my case). It was very clear from other social associations I had developed during those years - basically hooking up with people who kinda reflected the worst of me. The T of course would explain that as some sort of parental transference but it was nothing like that for me, it was hating some things in him that I hated the most in my own behavior when it happened. But it did not last because my personality / morals are not truly like that, it was mostly the side effects of active addiction for a few years, never before and not currently. Very easy for me to imagine that Ike's clients struggle with forms of this thing.
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Old 06-12-2019, 06:32 PM #49
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Default Re: Podcast about horribly Svengali-like shrink

My timid, deferential self was particularly drawn to manic, hysterical personalities who ignored rules and barriers. I felt complemented by people who gave me structure and rules. It was a way of extending childhood.

Though the podcast relationship was extreme, I think it's easy for a therapist to gain detrimental dominance over a client. I hope this case begins some discussion.

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Old 06-12-2019, 07:59 PM #50
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Default Re: Podcast about horribly Svengali-like shrink

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I hope this case begins some discussion.
if anything, i hope it encourages more of his clients/patients to come forward and share their stories.
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