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Default Jun 14, 2019 at 08:35 PM
  #1
How can you tell if you're idealizing a person? What if things are just good naturally?

Today, L told me that she wants me to trust that it's okay to be angry at her. I have had no major issues with L. No fights, ruptures, and only one misunderstanding. And I got frustrated only once because she didn't answer a question. I accept her and her boundaries. She hasn't done anything that I'd get mad about.

How do I know if I'm idealizing her or is it just reality?

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Default Jun 14, 2019 at 08:48 PM
  #2
Do you have a problem in general with anger? In almost 4 years with my T, I have never gotten angry at her, no ruptures, nothing. I've been slightly frustrated before, but its usually more at myself than her. I don't think its such a weird thing to not get angry at your T.
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Default Jun 14, 2019 at 09:02 PM
  #3
T and I are going through something similar. T knows I don’t do anger though which worries him more because he can’t trust me to tell him if he makes me angry. Personally I know I am not just idealizing things because there are traits of his that really bother me (and we have talked about some) but most don’t impact our work.

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Default Jun 14, 2019 at 09:33 PM
  #4
I think the reality is that you have a very good therapist and you see her for the professional that she is.

I don’t think that’s idealizing. Sometimes we are fortunate enough to find really competent professionals and it’s simply a relief to know that.
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Default Jun 15, 2019 at 12:04 AM
  #5
Prior to our rupture, I would say that I didn't idealize my T because I didn't see her as perfect. I knew she made mistakes, I knew there were things about her that in some way bothered me. Since things have been better with her (I'm not sure if we are repaired or not), I feel like there's more idealization going on. I think this because so many of my feelings I have towards her now, I can't tell if they are towards the real her, the image of her I made up in my head, an internalized version of her, or the adult (mommy) part of me.

Not sure if that helps.
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Default Jun 15, 2019 at 12:04 AM
  #6
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Originally Posted by velcro003 View Post
Do you have a problem in general with anger? In almost 4 years with my T, I have never gotten angry at her, no ruptures, nothing. I've been slightly frustrated before, but its usually more at myself than her. I don't think its such a weird thing to not get angry at your T.
I don't generally have problems with anger except with my H. I don't get mad at too many people. Usually it's hurt or frustrated feelings. I'm usually good at using my words and expressing my feelings appropriately. I used to push down my anger, but thanks to years of therapy, I have learned that my anger is okay.

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Default Jun 15, 2019 at 12:49 AM
  #7
There are some boundaries of hers that I don't like, but from what little I know of her, I like her. And I didn't want to like her. I didn't want to get attached. But I did. Very fast...imo at least. 2.5 months?

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Default Jun 15, 2019 at 01:27 AM
  #8
I feel like this with my T as well but I don't feel like I idealize him. I feel like I just respect him as a person and respect his time and boundaries, and he hasn't done anything that would make me really upset. We've talked about the same thing, how it's okay for me to be angry at him and say so. I've told him it takes a lot for me to get angry with someone else and usually I get angry at myself first.
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Default Jun 15, 2019 at 03:02 AM
  #9
That just sounds like liking your therapist. I like my therapist in rational ways, and I idealise him too.

Example of rational ways I like him: I think he's a really good therapist, I respect him, I think we are a great team and he is a good therapist for me.

Examples of idealisation: I sometimes feel like he is perfect, infallible, I read things he has written like they were written by a genius. I imagine he is a perfect husband, father, friend, lover. Etc.

For me that's the difference. And actually I think the idealisation is the cause of many ruptures, because I expect sooo much of him, and I am very disappointed and hurt when he can't fulfill my idealised expectations.
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Default Jun 15, 2019 at 06:11 AM
  #10
I think it's more rich and complex than seeing someone as 'perfect'.

There's splitting, like when a child has to see a parent as all good to preserve a sense of safety. This is perhaps where you you see them as perfect, where they can do no wrong and defend the person even when they did wrong. Similar to black and white thinking, this is where your mind can't integrate two opposing concepts and in that mindset, and often a person can alternate from idealizing to devaluing. This can change when your object relations changes.

There's also falling in love, where you might not necessarily see the T as perfect, but you may love their imperfections. This is where you may see them 'better ' then how they really are. Better in that when it fades, you may view them as more average and realistic.

Then there's feeling like a child, that for me coincided with the falling in love feelings. Depending on the age I felt, sometimes he seemed larger than life, and strong and powerful. When I looked at him, I felt excited to see him and felt a baby seeing her mother upon waking up in the morning in her crib. I remember feeling this vividly,
and saying to T, "you seem soo big and strong". It felt amazing at the time. Everything he did was so loveable, and sometimes he seemed like a giant teddy bear. At the same time, I felt weak and helpless, like an infant.

I didn't experience splitting which is more cognitive, but experienced the latter, which is transference and related to memories captured by parts. My parts integrated and we worked through the transference, so I only see him for who he is now. I still think he's cute and lovable, but it's more affectionate rather than from the mindset of a child. I no longer see him as strong and powerful.

The child idealization was interesting when it was occurring. Until a certain age, every child idealizes the parent who takes care of them. I just happened to experience what that felt like in therapy. I never thought he was perfect because my adult self was participating in the therapy as well and kept the rational perspective of everything.

I think it can be a mix of these things. Can you relate to any of that? From what you wrote here, I can't say either way if you idealized your T. If you have other posts that spell it out more, I could take a look.
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Default Jun 15, 2019 at 07:08 AM
  #11
For clients it can be a bit of both usually. There's always parts of us that think we are special or the T really really likes us, they are wonderful people etc... Idealizing...

Then there is parts where we might get a glimpse of the human in them, or realize the clients are all treated similar (usually) so thats reality.

Having feelings is just normal. It might have nothing to do with your T. My anger for t3 isn't about him at all. It's for long term T but t3 is the only person I express it on

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Default Jun 15, 2019 at 07:31 AM
  #12
I think idealizing is very subjective and it is a spectrum, not distinct, well-defined phenomena. I can't easily recall anyone in my life that I have seen all good or all bad but there were many that I saw in a generally more positive or more negative light. I also can't easily recall anyone I had a longer term relationship with and never got angry at them - not talking about unbearable, red hot, lasting anger and resentment, but annoyances are normal everyday features IMO. From my perspective and the way I usually see people, I've seen a few clients on PC who appear to be idealizing their therapist even if they occasionally feel mad at them or hurt by them. For me, idealizing is not a state that is devoid of negative feelings and opinions, more when a person's perceived positive qualities become distorted and exaggerated, or someone projects qualities onto them that are not truly there or not to that extent. But, as I said, all this is highly subjective. A lot of reality is also subjective as it is based on perceptions or inherently biased/limited measurements.

I think I had a few mentors and other professional role models in the far past that I idealized (with my definition of idealizing above) for a while but it typically dissipated quite fast and then I saw them more for who they were. I also had a mutual idealizing going on with my father in the past, on and off, with many stages from my early childhood to (on my end) even after his death for a while. I think these types of idealizations can be quite important elements in the development of one's sense of self and value system because we project things onto them that we personally value and might want to develop in ourselves. I definitely had a good series of those when I was young but that trend kinda leveled and gradually faded by my mid-to-late 30's. I went into therapy for the first time when I was almost 40, so pretty much beyond those periods of my life. I can imagine that I perhaps would have idealized a T for a while if I had seen them in my 20's or early 30's and if they happened to have traits that I admired and wanted to see in myself.

Early on, I had expectations from therapy in general that the experience definitely did not fulfill but neither the expectations nor the disappointments were very strong and significant emotionally, more just something I was curious about, tried and figured it wasn't truly my thing. As for the actual therapists, I definitely did not idealize mine. I liked my second T the same way I like other people that are sympathetic and have qualities I appreciate. I still remember him in that way. First T I grew to mostly despise on an emotional level but I can still see features in him that are valuable or it is easy to see being valuable for other people. I actually often contrasted the two Ts in many ways for a while and discussed these contrasts many times with the second one, that was quite interesting. I think there were some exaggerations/projections in those comparisons. When I thought about the meaning of those contrasts for me personally, the best interpretation I came up was that I was probably evaluating my own contradictions through them a bit and, at first, the latter was definitely unconscious.

ETA: Overall, I really think what is not emphasized enough when trying to find meaning in idealizations of any kind is to look at it as a form of self-idealizing. There is the whole Self Psychology thing but even that is not unwrapped far enough by many therapists. They frequently go as far as idealized parent, and that may be true for some clients, but why do we idealize (or want to idealize) our parents at all? I don't think it is just about the fact that they are supposed to care for us and we want good care. A lot of it, IMO, is what I said above about developing our own psyche, values and behavioral patterns. We easily pick anyone who seems to embody these things (or project onto them) before we even realize that those are traits we want to embody ourselves. I think this mechanism should be mentioned much more often when interpreting transference as well, for me it is way more meaningful than just saying a desire for authority figures, ideal caregivers etc. More meaningful because it can directly reveal often deep things about the self, not merely about our histories and interactions with the external world. What sorts of things a person tends to idealize can be a very good question in any introspective adventure, IMO.

Last edited by Xynesthesia2; Jun 15, 2019 at 08:11 AM..
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Default Jun 15, 2019 at 08:24 AM
  #13
Idealizing to me means that you're not seeing any of the flaws a person has. Not idealizing them doesn't necessarily lead to being angry with them, frustrated and so on, but it can.

As an example: I know my T is sometimes wrong about things. Sometimes he says things that are either old-fashioned, he isn't informed about something correctly. Sometimes he forgets stuff I tell him.

In phases where I idealize him, I don't really remember that. I'll take each and every of his words and they are the truth. I'll think that he'll never, ever forget about this minor detail that I told him 3 years ago.

In those situations I might get angry when he does forget something, but usually it just reminds me that I kind of idealize him and that he's just human. I've rarely ever been angry with him, but I'm pretty sure I idealize him most of the time.

So to answer your question: are there any flaws that L has which you acknowledge, know about, accept? If so, you're probably not idealizing her (at the moment). If you can't think of a single flaw, I'm kind of inclined to say that you're probably idealizing her, based on the fact that most humans have lots of flaws.
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Default Jun 15, 2019 at 09:07 AM
  #14
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They frequently go as far as idealized parent, and that may be true for some clients, but why do we idealize (or want to idealize) our parents at all?
There's a developmental aspect to it that every child goes through, so that type of idealization is cognitive. In the sense that children aren't capable of processing complex emotions until older and the brain is not fully formed until age 20 something, they also don't have an adult sense of self. It's similar to how a child can't distinguish the mother from self as an infant, followed by being the center of the universe. I think at the point where the idealization begins is when a child discovers the parent is separate from them and lasts to the separation-individuation phase.

It is used as a defense for some clients, in others as you said, projections, but every child goes through that phase and some of experience unthawing those frozen parts in therapy.
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Default Jun 15, 2019 at 09:55 AM
  #15
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There's a developmental aspect to it that every child goes through, so that type of idealization is cognitive. In the sense that children aren't capable of processing complex emotions until older and the brain is not fully formed until age 20 something, they also don't have an adult sense of self. It's similar to how a child can't distinguish the mother from self as an infant, followed by being the center of the universe. I think at the point where the idealization begins is when a child discovers the parent is separate from them and lasts to the separation-individuation phase.

It is used as a defense for some clients, in others as you said, projections, but every child goes through that phase and some of experience unthawing those frozen parts in therapy.
The kind of early life idealization you are talking about, how is it cognitive though? It is the cognitive functions that develop the last and are not fully formed until ~mid-20's, so a child or adolescent person doesn't have appropriate/complete independent faculties in that domain. I also think that the sense of self is pretty complex and contains more emotional elements than cognitive (more rational) ones - that's why we feel so strongly about personal values, for example, which are parts of a person's identity. These are usually not things that we just decide about and pick at will, or measure rationally, when they develop. Later on a person typically uses their sense of self and already formed values for decision making, judgment, choosing whatever is in harmony or dissonant relative to that sense of self. I also think that idealization of any kind is rarely rational, that's why we cling to an ideal and disregard the reality.

Anyhow, I am not sure we are talking about the same things and same developmental phases or maybe define and interpret things differently.
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Default Jun 15, 2019 at 10:32 AM
  #16
Cognitive in the sense it's on the same developmental path as functions such as reasoning and speaking, rather than emotions or social. if it's a poor choice of word then go ahead and substitute a better one.

Maybe capacity is a better word. Whatever the right word is, babies don't have the ability to even recognize themself in the mirror, or even their own body when an infant. I think the idealization in a child is on the same path-they don't have the ability to experience complex emotions and thoughts.

This explains better:
www.psychology.emory.edu/cognition/rochat/Rochat5levels.pdf

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Default Jun 15, 2019 at 11:48 AM
  #17
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I think it can be a mix of these things. Can you relate to any of that? From what you wrote here, I can't say either way if you idealized your T. If you have other posts that spell it out more, I could take a look.
I do relate to feeling like a child. In fact, I just told her that last session. I also know that I do have a pattern of idealizing and devaluing people. If I at some point felt good about a person, I will usually give them chances. But if they somehow affect my life negatively, they are written off, deemed "bad". I can only remember one person who started off "bad" and went to "good".

I'm sorry, but I don't really have posts about L. There hasn't been much to write about. I can tell you that we get along really well, always laughing, I'm open and honest, time flies by, she listens to me and repeats back in her own words what I say to make sure she understands, she responds to every email I write, she's given me two transitional objects, I gave her two gifts which she accepted. She's very gentle, kind, understanding. We just started hugs. She's answered all my personal questions at least in a vague way. She trusts me, feels I'm genuine, says she cares about me. I told her I care about her and feel connected.

I think part of my problem is one the therapeutic relationship is unbalanced, the T has more "power" and so you look up to them. It's also hard when you're divulging your life, and they share very little. I don't have much to judge her by. Plus, she's in a caregiver type field. And she believes attachment is a good thing.

I am thinking that I idealize her at least a little. But I think, I just don't have enough information to determine if she has "bad" qualities. Sure, there's things I don't like, for example some of her boundaries, but that more about me than her.

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Default Jun 15, 2019 at 11:51 AM
  #18
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So to answer your question: are there any flaws that L has which you acknowledge, know about, accept? If so, you're probably not idealizing her (at the moment). If you can't think of a single flaw, I'm kind of inclined to say that you're probably idealizing her, based on the fact that most humans have lots of flaws.
The only flaws I see are her boundaries. Other than that, I don't see any. Could it just be because there aren't any to see? She is sort of a blank-slate T.

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Default Jun 15, 2019 at 11:54 AM
  #19
I do have one problem and that's my dad. He nicknamed L "Mary" for Mary Poppins, "practically perfect in every way". And that's why I worry that I'm idealizing. Even based upon what I tell him, he can't find a flaw and he doesn't even like Ts.

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Default Jun 15, 2019 at 11:55 AM
  #20
Even if I am idealizing her a little (or a lot) is that really such a bad thing? At least I'm aware it's a possibility.

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