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Default Jun 16, 2019 at 08:37 AM
  #21
I know my current T grew up in a broken family that was blue collar labor and higher lower class income to lower middle class income. He worked very hard to get to where he is. I know he has had some struggles but they are not at all like mine (in type I do not know about severity). He is currently comfortably upper middle class. He is male, I am female. I am middle class blue collar but our income is about to drop by about half. His wife is retired and my husband is working 60-80hrs a week. I grew up with basically a single mom and lower income with middle class grandparents. I was lucky enough to get a very good education but have been limited in what I have been able to achieve with it. So, in many ways T and I are opposites.
His empathy is absolutely genuine and while he may not be able to understand my experiences from having lived them he certainly understands the impact they have on me. I don’t know if I will ever live a lifestyle like he does but his lifestyle has more to do with being emotionally healthy than the ammout of his financial resources. That emotionally healthy space where I can find my own success, however I design it, is where he is helping me to get to.

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Default Jun 16, 2019 at 12:46 PM
  #22
Sarah,
Don't compare your insides to someone else's outside. You never know what they are living with. Kram.

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Default Jun 16, 2019 at 03:39 PM
  #23
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Said no one ever when they have lived in poverty and deprivation. Choice is a privilege which is not afforded to the poor.

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Default Jun 16, 2019 at 10:52 PM
  #24
I have just sold my house of 32 years and moved away, leaving behind lots of things still in the house, as part of an "as is" sale which is actually a good deal for some senior citizens who are burdened by life and stuff and need just to get out. I consider myself fortunate that I was able to decide and do it myself rather than somebody else decide, as happened to a friend.

I had a nice house, husband, 2 children -- the trappings of a good life as society defines it. Until he died and I felll apart. From my perspective now, it is meaningless to what matters most. But I'm not sure this perspective can be very helpful to someone in their 30s. Social inequities and a sense of failure can be very debilitating, as I know from experience, too, despite what maY seem to be the trappings of my life. To the extent that therapy exacerbates the sense of being one-down and a failure that seems really counterproductive to helping a person.
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Default Jun 16, 2019 at 10:59 PM
  #25
I see no point to compare.

You couldn’t possibly know what is going on in therapist’s life behind closed doors. I have fairly good life but I have a horrible father, my brother and I are debating to estrange from him, we don’t know how much we can handle of him. None of that is obviously in my professional resume so you can’t possibly know what these therapists have in their lives: difficult children or illness or abusive parents etc

Also just because they have something in their life, doesn’t mean they always had it. I was told by someone on this site that I don’t understand plight of single people because I am married. I thought it was funny lol because I wasn’t born married lol I obviously was single before I got married hence I do understand single hood. At some point your therapists didn’t have a job or didn’t have a family etc

My t and I have the same level of education and are in a similar pay scale but she is much better off because she is married to a wealthy man while my husband is middle class like me. She can afford lavish vacations and we travel much more modestly but it doesn’t mean her life is better than mine or that she is happier.

I think it would be better to focus on improving your own life and reaching your own potential. Competing with others especially strangers is very counterproductive

Saying all that it might not be a bad idea to look for a therapist who is a bit more similar to you. I personally wanted a foreign born therapist who would share some immigration experiences. I also wanted one married or divorced/widowed with adult children. It wasn’t that hard to find. So maybe you can look for a therapist who is single with no kids maybe also born somewhere else hence maybe knowing more hardships etc etc etc
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Default Jun 17, 2019 at 08:33 AM
  #26
I agree with divine ^. Therapy can or may be helpful with some things but to the extent that it isn't or is counterproductive, or encourages counterproductive experiences or feelings -- how to get oneself out of that is something I have found I have to (try to) do myself. Which is very difficult if/when one doesn't feel one "belongs or has (equal) merit or has anyone in life just in general, not a "professional ", to help and "be there". Unfortunately, psychological problems can exacerbate one's alienation, or sense of, alienation from society. So it has been very important for me to try to find some ways and some places where I don't feel so alienated. Again, a catch-22 because if I am expecting or fearful of being rejected or one-down then unfortunately it often seems that is more likely to actually happen!

Fortunately, there are some people who are not so rejecting of me. This forum is certainly one such place. Finding that in the real world remains a challenge, but what are the good alternatives?
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Default Jun 17, 2019 at 04:15 PM
  #27
Thanks. Not all therapy has made me feel bad and I keep going and keep searching as I still have hopes about meeting with a T who can help me. I´m now waiting to see a new T who I very briefly met with this week, we´ll have our first appointment in September or October.


I agree not all therapists lead good lives and that some do really have their problems of their own but I mostly refer to those T:s I´ve seen personally. I can´t know how they live "behind closed doors" but as I lack important bits in my life as work, a partner, my relatives live very far away I see what they have and it heightens my feelings about what I don´t have.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xynesthesia2 View Post
The first thought I had: why do you keep pushing therapy given that it always makes you feel badly, and in more than one way?

I relate to what stopdog said and am in a similar position. I personally don't give a damn to many of the so-called socially respected values such as property, getting married, having kids etc. I value education so I have chosen to put a great deal of energy into that in many ways but am not moved by credentials per se. Perhaps more than anything, I value personal freedom and have set my life to have quite a lot of it, which meant choosing not to get into certain kinds of positions and status as it would limit the level of freedom and autonomy that I like. For me, a therapist is definitely not someone I would ever want to trade lives with. I definitely have regrets and would change some decisions and strategies if I could go back, but oh well.

It sounds to me, Sarah, that you have some ideals that are just not compatible with your reality but you keep chasing them. I would ask myself the question why? And, even more, can there be a different way, something that fits with who you? It sounds like you want to live someone else's live and kinda ignore and devalue your own. Of course depression can do that... but therapists get depressed and chronically dissatisfied as well. I personally know quite a few that are some of the most effed up, insecure, lonely, disrespectful people I have met. There is often a lot of talk about such therapists here on PC. I don't think there is anything magical about status, wealth, property.... many people who have them complain about all the maintenance and stress those things can come with and wish they had chosen differently.
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Default Jun 17, 2019 at 04:22 PM
  #28
Thanks and thanks for sharing.

Yes, I agree my feelings stem partly from childhood and some of the feelings of failure have grown from me not having a job nor a social network. I look to what I understand they had accomplished when they were my age, if I for example read about a T who has lived in her flat with her husband for 25+ years I understand she has had a more stable life than me.


Have you during your process you describe ever told your T that you find him/her more successful than him/her or similar? Did you grieve what you didn´t get so you could accept it turned out that way?




Quote:
Originally Posted by octoberful View Post
Stopdog-sure, people can make a choice to not google someone. But I think if this is a core issue for someone, it will regularly manifest and in different ways. If not googling, then when watching TV. A person can not watch TV. If not TV, then driving down the street and passing those flats. A person may be able to avoid driving down the street. In all, a person might have to disconnect from life altogether to avoid feeling like that, which ironically, is sort of what Sarah has been doing.


I can relate to this Sarah. I have some of these things-children, career, education, above average home...but have often felt that way too and have had many discussions with my therapist about these things. I have often felt like that around my peers despite having similar things, I haven't met anyone who has a similar background as mine. (Not that they don't exist, it's just I have not met any. Most of my peers come from privileged backgrounds). I later learned that my feelings were all from the past-mostly from feeling deprived for much of my childhood. Deprived of love and parenting. I didn't experience 'normal' things- like having food to eat. Later, growing up with almost no 'normal' and having to constantly be around people who had some 'normal' things in life. And there is definitely a normal for those who have had little of it, so I agree with the relative aspect to this. If I lived in a developing country, having food might not be the norm, but where I lived, everyone I knew had food and so having food to eat was the norm. And I now think success is not about having things/accomplishments, but feeling content and whole and doing what you want to do--self actualizing. Some of us never had a sense of safety at all growing up, and this can get ingrained with your personhood. On the outside, I may look like one of those people Sarah, but you see here that I experience similar feelings. I think the same can be for therapists, so a T who has had 'invisible' hardships or adversity to overcome may be able to relate to you.

Since I had different parts, the feelings of deprivation were dissociated and also, I lived in the future for most of my adulthood and was very goal oriented, which eventually broke down. Now, after years of therapy, I started living in the present. It is vastly different from how I lived before, and living in the present--which required a sort of disconnecting from the future--led to feeling a ton of regret at the way my life is now when it could have been so much better. It doesn't help to dwell over things you can't change, but grieving these things with my T has been part of a process. Lately, T and I talk about moving forward, and during my last session, T noted I am looking at the future in a positive light. This wasn't exactly a serial process because there were spurts of throwing away old things, cleaning out closets, etc., that would dissipate and re-emerge. These behaviors paralleled my feelings of having to deal with my past but also make sense of it all. Not quite there, I'm almost at the place I want to be.

I have to be realistic and say that this process has been extremely painful, though I'm not talking about the one concept here as there was a lot of reconnecting with my feelings going on and I had a high degree of trauma. I think I have let go of the grieving surrounding these years , but I don't think a person necessarily needs therapy to move forward. I often remind myself of the economic principle of sunk costs, where you would still be at the same place regardless of what you did in the past. It's obviously a good idea to direct your energies to what you can do now rather than what you could have done, if possible. For some of us, that is a process that coincides with many different tangents and connection points, so easier said than done.
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Default Jun 17, 2019 at 04:35 PM
  #29
I really empathise with you if it's the former. When you don't have enough money to live, no job, and you don't have someone to rely on it's exceptionally hard to get that across to someone who hasn't gone through not having enough. I didn't get it until I went through four hellish years of it. I've had some decent enough therapists, but I'm not sure any of them would really understand not having enough money to buy food or pay rent. And to be honest, I don't think therapy can ever solve that particular problem. I honestly think this kind of problem means taking a very practical approach and then just getting through hell. It means looking at making very small steps (like getting any job, like socialising even if theres no close friendship to be had) so you can give yourself some breathing space and look around at how to get to the next thing.

Well said M. le Black Tomato!!!

I agree that therapists who live comfortably often don't get what it's like to not have enough, or to be constantly outside that comfort zone.
My experience is that I had to fight hard and make use of all my opportunities and stop looking to middle class therapists to save me. And it worked out in the end. Through working crazy hard I now finally, 30/40 years later have what I need. I've learned gratitude.

I think there is a blur between depressive thinking and actual not having enough that has to be tackled. Sure actual not having enough has an emotional impact, but need to find inner strength to stand back from those reactions in order to improve the situation. For me martial arts gave me that strength.

Good thread, and thanks again tomatonoir - you said it all way better than I can!!!

It used to weigh me down how entitled people acted who had enough - them and their families. I joined a writing group and did a lot of public writing about these issues, and that also helped me to both challenge myself and to feel validated in speaking out.

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Default Jun 17, 2019 at 04:39 PM
  #30
Thanks and thanks for sharing and for the encouragement.

Yes, I feel I don´t have the basics even if of course there will always be people worse off than me. I don´t have a wage, I live on welfare, I don´t have any relatives or family where I live and spend almost all time alone and even if I have a flat of my own I live very small, like I still was a student which I´m not.

I can also envy the lifestyle I imagine the T has or the envy sometimes emerge from understanding the T:s going for a holiday while I don´t have any money at all for travel.

I don´t expect a T to solve those kind of issues in a practical way for me but be able to help me to better self confidence, to believe in myself and to have someone, the T, to support me through struggles. I now mean during a limited amount of time but as I have nobody close where I live I find it at least a bit easier to keep struggling when knowing I have a T who supports me.

To own an expensive flat doesn´t say you live a happy life but it though tells a lot about other things. Here, a person with no heritage or other money gifts, would not be able to own an expensive flat unless he/she him-/herself had earned quite a lot of money from an early age. Also, knowing a T is both married and has a child tells me she knows more about relationships than me and she has probably developed in a more normal way than me as I haven´t had any romantic relationships at all.

What I mean is that it´s easy to find things that make me feel a failure and also notice how peoples lifes differ very much depending on whether they live in the city or in the suburbs.

I do some small things similar to what you suggest and I also do more than that by struggling to get help from our unemployment agency, by arguing to get access to therapy and so on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tomatenoir View Post
You seem to bring up these kind of social comparisons frequently in your posts, and I'm sort of curious as to what's at the root of them.

Is it that you don't feel like you have the basics (which I do feel most people need to be content) -- a living wage, a few caring relationships, a decent place to live --and that no therapist can understand that? (In short, is it an issue of real lack?) Or is is that you feel your therapists have a lifestyle that you're envious of -- amazing houses, nice clothes, foreign holidays? (Is it an issue of comparison?)

I really empathise with you if it's the former. When you don't have enough money to live, no job, and you don't have someone to rely on it's exceptionally hard to get that across to someone who hasn't gone through not having enough. I didn't get it until I went through four hellish years of it. I've had some decent enough therapists, but I'm not sure any of them would really understand not having enough money to buy food or pay rent. And to be honest, I don't think therapy can ever solve that particular problem. I honestly think this kind of problem means taking a very practical approach and then just getting through hell. It means looking at making very small steps (like getting any job, like socialising even if theres no close friendship to be had) so you can give yourself some breathing space and look around at how to get to the next thing.

But if it's the latter, I'd really encourage you to think about what's behind all those things the therapist has. I grew up upper middle class, and it was effing miserable. The house was a museum my mom wouldn't let us do anything in, the holidays were my mom complaining about everything and sulking in hotel rooms, the marriage eventually had an affair for which I was sent to therapy, me and my brother regularly had nervous breakdowns because the demands on us to be high-achieving perfect beings were insane. Your therapist's seemingly perfect life will have skeletons you are not seeing, whether that's a gambling addiction, negative equity, dying parents, or massive overspending. The house may be beautiful, but you really have no idea what's happening inside. Your therapist does not have a picture perfect life.

I do think there's some truth to what you're saying about it being harder to get certain things when you're older and have never had them. But I do think you can still make positive changes that will improve the quality of your life, I really do. It's always helped me to look back on my life in five year chunks -- I'm always amazed by how much change had happened, even though I feel like my day to day stays the same.

Have you considered making a small goal that will help you? Maybe something like exercising every day? I once read something I thought was very clever -- that fitness is one of the few things that is fair, that what you put in is exactly what you get out, and that no one can pay someone else to do the work for them. It's a very small thing, and it won't solve your life, but it's a foot in the right direction.
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Default Jun 17, 2019 at 04:42 PM
  #31
Thanks. Here we don´t have that opportunity to choose so freely as there are very few therapists and clinics to choose from if you can´t pay yourself, we don´t have an insurance based health care system.

I though agree that if I knew a T had had similar struggles as me I would probably feel more connected.


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Sarah what you say makes sense to me. It costs a lot to train as a therapist, and it tends to be more well off people who train as therapists. I think that one of the Ts I had was not well off at all. And I think she took on a lot of clients who could not pay much. Perhaps if you could see someone like her you would feel more connected.
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Default Jun 17, 2019 at 04:49 PM
  #32
I'm not sure that grieving doesn't send people round in circles if they are not also taking steps externally in their lives. If you have your life sorted then you can worry about grief, but there are real steps that need to be taken to make a good life if it hasn't been handed to you. Not just emotional floundering, but learning how to get out in the world. Being in the world, hating it, crying, being in the world, having experiences... all the experiences that I had while living in social housing for instance were horrible BUT I also built up a reservoir of understanding how to live outside my own comfort zone. Now that stands me in good stead because I find myself forming bonds with other "outsiders" who have been forced to stretch themselves.

We build stuff that isn't like "therapy" and isn't like in the magazines - and those experiences we get build our real understanding of other people's lives.

I will NEVER be in the slightest bit like a middle class therapist. I am meeting people, however, who value me very much as I am. My depth of experience is different to people who lived within their comfort zones all their lives. Yeah.

Perhaps you can do some filtering about how much of these failure feelings are realistic and require action - and how much is what I would call "brain fluff" - just my depressed brain circling down the plughole?

Is there a YMCA type program where you can meet others who don't have life handed down on a silver platter, and realise that you are not alone in your situation?

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Default Jun 17, 2019 at 05:51 PM
  #33
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Thanks and thanks for sharing.

Yes, I agree my feelings stem partly from childhood and some of the feelings of failure have grown from me not having a job nor a social network. I look to what I understand they had accomplished when they were my age, if I for example read about a T who has lived in her flat with her husband for 25+ years I understand she has had a more stable life than me.

Have you during your process you describe ever told your T that you find him/her more successful than him/her or similar? Did you grieve what you didn´t get so you could accept it turned out that way?
The way i see him (or anyone) as more successful is that he is content with his life (from what I see) and is surrounded by family. Yes, we've talked about it. I feel a lot of envy about his relationship with his daughter especially since I never had a father. Technically I did, but functionally did not. Sarah, it's really not about them; it's about feeling content with yourself, which is a process.

I've read many posts along the same vein-people feeling envious of their Ts life whether it be husband, wife, children, etc. Maybe some will post about how they overcame that. I had not heard any stories about overcoming this but will be returning to this thread to see if any turn up. Although some don't know economic hardship, I think many, many people can relate to wanting things they can't have. Including therapists. I remember a good deal of posts written about this here though no specific ones come to mind to link.

It's not to late to make a better life for yourself. Start today. Make a plan of what you want. Just identifying what you want, writing it down, could be a step towards getting there.

Adding because I just remembered-last session I asked him what he was doing for father's day and he told me. Later I told him I was really jealous and that I don't ask him many questions about his personal life anymore as i used to because of the jealousy feelings. That's the issue with behavioral approaches-they often don't solve a thing. Not asking him about his personal life wasn't protecting myself from sabotage. Instead, it just disconnected me from him and made me feel aloneness. It can be isolating when done on a larger scale.
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Default Jun 17, 2019 at 07:06 PM
  #34
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Thanks. Here we don´t have that opportunity to choose so freely as there are very few therapists and clinics to choose from if you can´t pay yourself, we don´t have an insurance based health care system.

I though agree that if I knew a T had had similar struggles as me I would probably feel more connected.
Sarah, even in the USA with insurance you can be limited in your choice for a doctor therapist. I am about to have surgery with a surgeon a d surgical team I do not trust with good reason. Choosing another doc and hospital would put us in serious financial troubles. Even with insurance there are problems

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Default Jun 17, 2019 at 10:46 PM
  #35
Hi Sarah,
What is keeping you from getting a job? Is it your mental illness? You just often mention that being unemployed bothers you, but would it be a realistic goal for you?
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Default Jun 17, 2019 at 10:56 PM
  #36
Since you don't work, maybe it would be worth considering relocating nearer to family (if you have any family members who are ok and not horrible, I don't want to assume). It just sounds like you are completely isolated. Is there anything holding you down? Maybe a change of scene and a fresh start would be good for you.

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Default Jun 18, 2019 at 04:09 AM
  #37
Are there any vocational services in your area or could your therapist/psychiatrist/case manager help you with perhaps funding a part time job (if full time is too difficult), even 5 hours a week would put you into a category of “employed” and you would maybe feel better. Is it possible?

Here in the US many people on disability work part time (unless disability is very severe), in fact most I know do.

If you work even a little bit you’d be able to afford more and maybe even meet new people. Is this an option?
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Default Jun 18, 2019 at 09:29 AM
  #38
Quote:
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. . .
It's not to late to make a better life for yourself. Start today. Make a plan of what you want. Just identifying what you want, writing it down, could be a step towards getting there. . .
Seems to me like what Sarah has said she wants is a nice place to live, a husband perhaps and children. A better place on the scale of social inequity. And that those seem impossible for her, and being with a therapist who has, or seems to have them, highlight that situation and the impossibility of things getting any better. I suspect that Sarah has tried everything she knows to do, and she continues to look for ideas, including asking for suggestions here.

I know for myself, the way I developed, I tended to look outside myself for what I "wanted", rather than being conscious of what I wanted from inside. Some people find help for that kind of thing through therapy. I didn't. I was too well "defended", I guess.

What I wanted, it seems clear now, was love and acceptance and belonging. I had lived with, or in, a fantasy that those existed in my family of origin and then, "transferred"? in relationships in therapy and the idea/idealization of therapy in general. What burst the fantasy was my last therapist's rejection of me.

I feel like I could not have survived that psychologically without the acceptance of this forum, and that of a 3D, IRL support group that I lucked into.

But in a kind of general way I had been looking for that kind of support for years even though I didn't know what I "wanted". The pain of not having it was probably too intense for me to fully know, until I was forced, again by circumstance, by my therapist's rejection.

So, yes, push forward toward something better, even if you don't know exactly what it may be or how you might get there -- sounds like you're doing that, Sarah. And building psychological strength in the process, seems to me.
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Default Jun 18, 2019 at 10:02 AM
  #39
I wanted to add that the thing that has been coming through to me lately from your posts is that you seem to be feeling a bit hopeless. I don't really know what to say about the whole husband/family/housing/job/etc. stuff, and getting those in a timely fashion. I don't have them either, so I don't really have any advice (although I'm not really interested in building a traditional life for myself and am currently a student).

I wonder if it might be helpful for you to have some other goal or goals that would feel more achievable that you could be working on. I think it would probably help your depression if you could find something to be working towards. It's important for all of us to have something that gives our lives meaning. It's really hard to do that when depressed, I definitely do understand. For me, I don't feel very capable of wanting much for myself. I don't really have any hopes or dreams. However, I love my dogs more than I can say. I want to be able to give them the best lives possible. Right now, that means that I spend lots of time with them and spend what little extra money I can scrape together on them instead of myself. Anyway, the point is that having the goal of providing a great life for my dogs gives my life meaning.

Do you participate in any extra-curricular activities? I think you've mentioned not really having any friends. Maybe you could volunteer or something. If you like animals, maybe you could even foster a dog or cat. Here in the US, there are some rescue organizations who provide the food and pay for the vet bills for fostered pets. Just an idea.

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Thanks for this!
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Default Jun 18, 2019 at 11:04 AM
  #40
Look outward as opposed to inward. Each time you feel your world closing in on you, make a conscious effort to shift your attention/focus to what is happening both around you and in the world. Look outward. I wish you all the best!

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Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I’ll meet you there. ~Rumi
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