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Default Nov 12, 2019 at 03:53 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by SalingerEsme View Post
My T told me about Kohut's twin theory, in suggesting my marriage had provided that for me. I dont think I understand the theory well enough, if you have time to explain?
The Wikipedia article does a good job, I think:

Self psychology - Wikipedia

I don't think you have to understand Kohut's theory in the depth that he wrote about -- I don't think I do --to get the basic gist of his concepts and ideas.

I guess the main thing that's hard is understanding that I have this sense of self -- or lack it -- where the "sense", and what it does for me, is more than just the cognitive ideas I have about myself. There's something energizing about feeling "grand" or confident in the present of a more powerful other I can depend on, or twinned with someone else I can work with to do things in the world.

If/when internalized, there's an internal sense, the poles of the self, maybe, that doesn't require the presence anymore of any of the actual people who functioned in my internal world as self-objects. But it still feels "good" to have people who do that around. People who see something good in me, whom I admire and can count on or ideals that guide my life. And "twins" -- friends, co-workers , fellow citizens, etc.

I think the people who served as my early self-objects (for grandiosity and idealization) failed me, and then somehow the twinship thing didn't get generated, and then -- when I was 13 and puberty was going on and my adult ego was trying to get in gear, my uncle -- my aunt's husband molested me. And I can remember, how I thought and felt as the whole thing shut down . . .

So, let's say therapy helped me uncover the damage, the trauma to the grandiosity and idealization poles, and become more conscious of that so I realize when I'm feeling too grandiose about myself and to realize, some, when I'm idealizing something too much -- the next step would be the "healing", or something, of the twinship function.

Which my support group and not being rejected here have definitely helped with.

Not sure any of this makes sense to anyone else but It's how I use the theory to try to make sense of what happened to me, or maybe in me.

My late husband was a support for me in all 3 poles, too -- but it wasn't internalized because . . .well, I can speculate but that's all it would be. When he died -- I had no sense of who I was. I knew that, too, but it didn't help to develop anything else. Unfortunately, therapy didn't either, much. Although it did help me dig down to the trauma -- but therapy needs to do more than that, I think. At least for anyone who has the damage I did.

Last edited by here today; Nov 12, 2019 at 06:17 PM..
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Default Nov 12, 2019 at 04:13 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by Xynesthesia2 View Post
. . .
Also, if I wanted to use this twinship concept for self-work even at this point of my life, I would never do it with a therapist. Therapy is way too limited for this thing to be satisfying, rewarding and useful for me. . .
I agree -- the most maybe therapy should try to do is to heal the damage to poles of the self, the self-object functions. If that makes any sense much. It would be great if somebody CAN "twin" with a therapist but it seems like therapy should be able to help somehow even if that isn't a part of it.
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Default Nov 12, 2019 at 04:16 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Xynesthesia2 View Post
I was going to say but forgot, the trauma bond is the wrong kind of "twinship" IMO, for progress and development. It can feel good in the moment, but it does little else except validating and reinforcing an already negative pattern. If we are just looking for sympathy/empathy, maybe fine. But if we want solutions and to get out, absolutely not, in my view. I never like to commiserate long. This is why I don't like to establish/keep significant relationships with people who struggle with the same issues as myself but still in the struggle state and haven't found a way out. I know this is often not nice of me, but my preference that I find healthier for me.
Yes, kinda interesting, maybe, the similarity and yet the difference between a trauma bond feeling and a healthy self-object feeling.
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Default Nov 12, 2019 at 08:28 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by SilverTongued View Post

In the practical portion of the schooling, we were learning how to have a very awkward and structured conversation which is unlike any conversation in real life. People just don't talk that way but that's how they teach you to engage. So the conversations become stilted and awkward. In some cases, I observed that therapists were creating problems where none existed or making normal behaviors seem "maladaptive."
Sounds like therapy in a nutshell. System exists for its own sake. Must recruit customers. Sell unbalanced, hierarchical, engineered relationship as special healing relationship. Use fear-based messaging about the cost of not doing "the work". Target the traumatized and marginalized. Inflict subtle abuse and call it "boundaries". Defend the faith with obfuscating, victim-blaming concepts like "transference". Pathologize everything. Claim to "treat" everything. Therapy itself creates new problems. Customer for life.
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Default Nov 12, 2019 at 09:32 PM
  #25
I agree with you a lot, Budfox, about therapy in general. The social realities of the set-up which I didn't see myself until you and some others pointed out some patterns and I started taking a look at that myself. Why couldn't I see them? I don't know. I could make some guesses but that's all they would be.

But It's also true that I was starving myself almost to death, despite being offered plenty to eat, when my parents took me to therapy to begin with. Hardly a rational activity. It made sense to me at the time, though. So something was screwy somewhere.

I don't think therapy helped me change my mind or behavior. But I was in a mental hospital, away from my family, for 11 months when I was 16. I grew up a little maybe, gained a little more independence maybe. Who knows for sure. When I went back home and the hospital staff wasn't monitoring my food intake any more I started not eating again and lost more weight. Until one night, at a youth retreat where I had eaten virtually nothing for supper, I felt very bad and realized this losing weight, continuously, as a goal is a dead end street. Literally.

Why I hadn't seen that before then, who knows. And even then it wasn't so easy to change course. But the reality of the dead end was clear.

I still had trouble fitting in and some other stuff, so I continued to go to therapy. Became, in my own mind, a "mental patient" as part of my identity. Not a great thing to be but better than having to continually try to be perfect in every way, as I felt I had been expected to be, and continually failing. Being a mental patient gave me an out. Again, not a great choice or a very rational or mature one. But not a physical dead end. Why I couldn't see what a dead end it was in other ways for so long, who knows.

Therapy as a social institution sucks, and has negative effects on people, who knows how many.

But some of the theories have made some sense to me, so I use them.
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Default Nov 13, 2019 at 09:06 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by here today View Post
I think I know what is missing for me and when I became aware that my last T was not someone I could "twin" with I suggested that we could still work together on the development of my self from a kind of theoretical standpoint, exploring what would a "twin" be like for me, and the feelings that I had for a great-aunt, who was the closest of that for me. The therapist refused to consider it and that led to the ensuing conflicts that led to the termination.
Why did the T refuse to work with you in that way? I understand if she was unable to handle the conflicts, but having theoretical discussions about your feelings and how those fit in a model that can be used for improvement? That should be the basic job of a T.

I think many people like to identify with their mental disorder, it can give them a sense of knowing where the issues come from and a sense of belonging, including to a community of people who deal with the same. Then there are those who adamantly fight against such identification, e.g. when people refuse to be referred to as, for example, schizophrenic... and prefer the term a person with schizophrenia. I can understand both perspectives. I personally don't mind at all identifying with a current, ongoing problem that can be changed because it gives me a reminder to take it seriously and to work on it. Two examples from my own life were an eating disorder and alcoholism. I dislike including these things in the identity of people who have successfully and stably recovered from them and do not have symptoms, because it kinda suggests stagnation and that there is no real way out. But others find that useful e.g. as a reminder that they can never drink or use drugs again. I think the most important is to respect everyone's preference when interacting with them and Ts should be especially mindful in this sense.

I think the sense of self is a complex phenomenon and the interpersonal part that we are discussing here, that develops in relation to other people, is only one element. When I personally think about it, it is not even the first one. What occurs to me first is usually whether a person knows what interests and motivates them in life, their likes and dislikes, preferences, personal fears. Many people don't and this is what is sometimes referred to as "living someone else's life", when people follow and choose according to external expectations rather than their own. This is definitely also something where early life experiences are key and a person can easily get suppressed if their environment rejects and suppresses their choices. So surely the social factor comes in.

I also personally don't think one needs to fit in much in order to have a good sense of self. In fact, fitting in too much can generate what I mentioned above, a suppression of own needs, wants and individuality. What's very important though IMO is the opportunity and sense of contributing to something larger than the self, to society, in some way. For me, it is always best to contribute using the unique abilities of the self, so this also starts with knowing who we are and what we can do well. A lot of cases where people feel as a personal failure are when they are trying something too hard that does not naturally fits them.

Another important social component is culture, and this is something not many therapists consider much, in my experience. Some have a special interest and they kinda specialize in it, and can be quite knowledgeable about cultural factors in development and optimal functioning, but most just don't think very deeply beyond their own cultural biases and perhaps the most common forms of social discrimination. Where culture can get quite damaging IMO is when someone is born into one that does not fit well with and does not support their emerging sense of self... and they do not have the opportunity (or courage) to move out of it and find a more suitable environment. This is something I experienced myself and was lucky enough that I could get out of my country of origin easily, including not missing anything about it or suffering from cutting ties. Very interesting that I never, even for a day, felt "homesick" or even keen on going back for visits. In my view, it's a clear sign that I didn't feel belonging to that environment and most likely could not have self-actualized there. For many people, moving around is just a temporary wanderlust especially in youth, but for me it was essential part of my self development and finding my true niche. Some things I've learned is that I need an environment where I can be free to do whatever I want and there are matching opportunities, and that ideally it is a culturally quite diverse environment. Homogeneity and too limited possibilities can depress me, kill my motivation and, indeed, make me feel like a misfit or alien. I know with certainty because I tried and suffered the latter by choice as an adult for a while - that was where mental health issues emerged pretty fast. It was very destructive on me, even with a pretty strong sense of self, perhaps exactly because of that - I felt the contrast very intensely on many levels and felt trapped and unable to be myself. I absolutely believe these days it is possible to break out of a given culture and environment we happen to be born into, but it does require a sense of self-interest to begin. When I moved away from my country of origin, and chose a pretty daring professional shift as well, many people around me discouraged it and even told me it wouldn't work out. They were wrong. Fortunately, I always had enough supportive others in my life and, again, my father was probably the most important. As a parent, of course he would have liked me to be where he was but he never, for a minute, used that to limit me. He also taught by example because he was fiercely independent himself and would never take manipulations and limitations from others when they got in the way of his exploring whatever he wanted, including my mom, who was subtly manipulative and often passive aggressive. She got very depressed in the last 10 years of her life and I really believe the fact that both me and my dad rejected her in many ways, for decades, triggered or exacerbated that. It was sad that she didn't have other means in her personality to manifest her wishes, but I never regretted rejecting the negativity (and clinginess) for a second. I am not sure I would have had the self-awareness and courage to reject/avoid if my whole family was made of people like her though, without a better model that was much closer to my own nature.

One extremely annoying thing my first T tried with me was to impose himself as a sort of father figure - I was seeing him while my dad's health was declined and when he eventually died. I passionately rejected that as well, not because I think no one can be as good as my biological father, but because he obviously did not fit that role relative to me. The T and I had almost nothing in common and he constantly misunderstood/misinterpreted me because he could only see things through the lens of his own experiences and pet theories. But his world just didn't seem to overlap with mine, why he was a bad T for me to start with. He must have been flexible and self-aware enough (calling himself a T) to recognize and accept that though and admit that we were not a good match. Instead, he kept trying to manipulate and hold onto me. How could I not have gotten intensely mad at him for it? There may have been some maternal transference going on in how I viewed his attempts, but I don't think there was anything in it for me to "explore". I already knew it very clearly why my mom and I didn't match personality-wise and that it is better for me not to associate myself closely with such people - we just have such a strong dissonance in personal values and needs that the relationship would not go anywhere. My mom was okay for me as an infant, to provide for the need of an infant who does not have a sense of self yet and mostly needs shelter, food and basic forms of connection and love, but once that separate, individual sense developed, the clash became obvious. Similar for me in a T: I would never need/want them to provide for child needs because I don't think I have any. I would want them to help me find solutions to adult problems and maybe to encourage me to see new perspectives that do not occur to me, but in an adult-to-adult, mature, also practical way. Inevitably, they need to be mature and open enough to interact with me in that way. My second T definitely had that, he more just lacked the willingness (or maybe ability) to challenge me. And without that, the therapy was not much more than a series of interesting conversations and pleasant company.

Anyhow, it's probably easy to see why I personally just can't see how a T can realistically be sufficient to help a client to develop a sense of self, or a more accurate sense. They just cannot provide all factors necessary for that. I do believe they can provide one or two, and sometimes that can make a real difference if what they are able to manifest happens to be what the client was/is missing and has other resources for the other elements. I believe they can be good self-object to a client if they happen to be highly compatible in their own personality. But to be sufficient for all those needs and factors? That's nonsense IMO.
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Default Nov 13, 2019 at 10:29 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Xynesthesia2 View Post
Why did the T refuse to work with you in that way? I understand if she was unable to handle the conflicts, but having theoretical discussions about your feelings and how those fit in a model that can be used for improvement? That should be the basic job of a T.
. . .
She looked puzzled and uncertain and said, in relation to some things I had said while proposing the idea, that "it would take a long time". And I agreed. And then she said something like "there's nothing about me" or something to the effect that there was nothing about our relationship in what I was proposing. She looked very definite that she would not consider it further for that reason. That was my assumption, I now realize. I said "b****". I didn't have the "sense of self" to challenge her further about it at the time. I would now but that was then. She looked haughty and disapproving. My sense of self (or ego) started collapsing. I went back into the compliant state to finish the session since it didn't seem we would make much more progress in that one.

The next session she came in and said "I was triggered". Nothing more than that.

I tried to continue therapy with my "angry part" not in the room anymore. To see if we could make progress on some way that the part of me that said "b***" could be in the same room with her. Eventually, that led to the "I don't have the emotional resources to continue" situation and she terminated.

Maybe that part is a core, authentic ego that had been smashed out of existence early in my life and was trying to find a way to revive, and relate? I don't know, but it feels kind of like that. I have something better, now, but it has not been through going to more therapy.

This T likely had similar problems. We had both been raised in the Southern USA where being a "Southern lady" was considered essential, by many (appearance-conscious) families, at least.

This T had special training in trauma and dissociation, she had diagnosed me with DDNOS, surely she "knew" that dissociated parts can take over sometimes and say things the rest of the person normally wouldn't? Apparently not, or else she couldn't tolerate the assault on her own ego even if the person, the client, had dissociation issues. Or something, we never resolved things and she never said, so I don't know for sure. I am quite certain in my own self that I did the best I could, I had contained things the best I could at the time.

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Originally Posted by Xynesthesia2 View Post
. . .
I think the sense of self is a complex phenomenon and the interpersonal part that we are discussing here, that develops in relation to other people, is only one element.
I agree, but it's the interpersonal part that I had trouble with, and had for years.

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Originally Posted by Xynesthesia2 View Post
. . .
Anyhow, it's probably easy to see why I personally just can't see how a T can realistically be sufficient to help a client to develop a sense of self, or a more accurate sense. They just cannot provide all factors necessary for that. I do believe they can provide one or two, and sometimes that can make a real difference if what they are able to manifest happens to be what the client was/is missing and has other resources for the other elements. I believe they can be good self-object to a client if they happen to be highly compatible in their own personality. But to be sufficient for all those needs and factors? That's nonsense IMO.
I agree. What eventually happened for me is that the T's rejection of me -- combined with the earlier shaming attitude toward me -- touched a painful part, or emotions, in me that had been dissociated, defended over, compliant, people-pleasing "self" or personality built on top of all that. And going to therapy, compliant and people-pleasing, just kept that pattern going.

I cannot describe to you, however, how disabling it felt, and WAS, when that feeling from the therapist's rejection connected up with the same feeling from my childhood with relation to how I felt with how my female relatives viewed me. Nothing specific, just some generalities. Maybe some accumulation over time.

The last T had said early on that she thought I was "narcissistically wounded and fragmented". She was trained in, and we dealt somewhat effectively with, the fragmentation.

Not the wounding, though, as far as I can see. The trouble is, I think, that in order to go forward that unbearable, numbed out pain needs to be felt. The pain is preventing the healthy self or ego -- in this case maybe it's the twin function? -- from being activated. But the pain itself is disabling - and if one can count on no one else in the world to help you, it is terrifying. Which is disabling in it's way, too.

That's been my experience, though, and my interpretation of it.

Right now, I'm not sure I have words that mean much to anybody else. And my experience may seem isolated, mine only.

But I think there are some similarities in the experiences of clients in failed or harmful therapies that could be useful. IF therapists were willing to look at them.

Last edited by here today; Nov 13, 2019 at 11:03 AM..
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Default Nov 13, 2019 at 11:08 AM
  #28
I actually see your experiences as quite common, both in childhood and in therapy - definitely many stories around where people's original hurts/lacking get reactivated in therapy, it elicits strong reactions that might even feel ego-dystonic to the client but it cries for acceptance and integration. But the T, who is able to see and diagnose the problem just cannot handle the discomfort coming from how those parts of someone's self affect them. It may trigger a sense of insecurity in their own ability to treat the issue as well - sounds like yours might have had that and felt incompetent and limited in her acclaimed expertise. If I were in a situation like that (not if I were you, but with my own self), I am sure I would actually appreciate their admitting their limits and suggesting that they don't have what I seek/need, and I definitely don't claim that I am able to even imagine your feelings...but I easily understand that people who had been rejected and disrespected early on in their lives experience that as a huge injury and re-traumatization. Ironically, I saw how that works and what strong reactions it can induce in my own T - I think my criticisms hit some really sore and insecure spots on his ego and he was unable to look at it rationally. For me it is not rocket science to see how that works even just intellectually - this is why I wondered why she refused your request to explore in a more intellectual way. But yeah, it does sound like she was triggered and couldn't tolerate it, then refused to work on herself to improve that issue of her own. In this sense, my experience in the end with my first T might have been similar to yours, the difference is that I didn't care about it the same way as you because I didn't have the same pre-existing injury. I mostly just got mad for the unfairness and his inability to look outside of his box, which he sometimes actually admits on his online media, just didn't to me directly... I think he felt too vulnerable that he got in that situation with a client who saw through it and was not similarly insecure in the same way. But your story shows that if both parties have similar backgrounds, the outcome will not be better. Then what? What would be a good combination? Surely a confident, secure, reasonable T... but that's not easy to find, exactly because what often draws them to this profession is their own injuries and insecurities. I do not believe that all of those can be realistically resolved or worked through, as is often expected of a T. Some people here on PC report having outstanding Ts that can tolerate anything - that might either be good luck or, in part, idealization.

Of course your experience is unique and yours only, I don't believe any two experiences can be identical, there are way too many individual variables in each story. But it is definitely a pattern that happens to many people - why we have all those threads discussing common hurts and harms in therapy. As I said several times, I don't personally relate very much but I find these things very interesting, significant, and important to raise and discuss. I never feel triggered by these shares and discussions (as some assumed about me in the past), more intrigued. I also have an interest that comes from a desire for fairness and to empower people, which I would expect of a T as well, but it is clearly not always the case. Many of then focus too much on the pathology, the traumas, and dismiss adult strengths that can actually be used to overcome the difficulties. For example, you do seem to have quite some cognitive strength that you can use effectively, e.g. via digging into theories and applying them to your experiences. I think many Ts don't have a similar cognitive strength and this may be part of why they feel intimidated and eventually refuse engaging with it. Or maybe they have the caliber but are just lazy to do new research and to expand their horizons. I think this latter area was where my second T failed. Instead, he claimed that I was so unique and different from everyone and everything, it was just hard for him to offer anything tailored enough or things I hadn't already known. I definitely don't think I am so unique and such a big enigma, I've found many suitable and helpful theories myself. But I don't think merely going somewhere to talk is useful for me - what I get out of all the talking that can lead to practical actions and changes is what matters to me.

Everyone should have a voice and a place to relate and express themselves. Therapy is often expected to be such a place but, as some of these experiences demonstrate, it is not as easy and simple as claimed and anticipated. The one thing I always wish for people to recognize earlier is when therapy is just not for them, when it is mostly a wasted money and energy to push it. But based on what you are saying, it sounds like often it is not possible to recognize those things early. So what, do you think, would be the most supportive and constructive role of a T in those situations? It clearly seems like you don't like how your T admitted her limits and ended it. What could she have done better, in your opinion? What would have helped you, considering all factors, including the fact that she had some similar issues to you perhaps?

Last edited by Xynesthesia2; Nov 13, 2019 at 11:44 AM..
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Default Nov 13, 2019 at 12:14 PM
  #29
I was going to add that another clear strength I see in you via this limited medium of PC is a strong desire and openness for improvement. I know you aren't a young person but seem to be unlike many in your age group in that you don't see being older as some sort of hopeless, rigid end state. I am sure in some moments you do, especially in bouts of depression, but your overall attitude does not seem like that at all. All the comments you tend to make about trying different things, having an open mind that whatever you try may or may not lead to some change, that time will tell, and acknowledging when that has clearly happened. This is something I intensely relate to and admire in anyone, especially when the person acknowledges that sometimes they made a mistake of expecting too much from something they tried and maybe took it too far. Oh well, it happens. To me, it is not merely a sterile expedition but persistence and perseverance, which are strengths of the ego just as much as recognizing when something is not working and moving on with humility but without losing our pride and hope.

I firmly believe that the kind of desire you are showing is coming from a sense of self, a form of it, don't think it is just a habit of compliance and superficial attempt to please the environment. I think you are trying to satisfy yourself and your own standards with it, I see it as a desire of the self to fill in holes it has identified.
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Default Nov 14, 2019 at 07:19 PM
  #30
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I agree with you a lot, Budfox, about therapy in general. The social realities of the set-up which I didn't see myself until you and some others pointed out some patterns and I started taking a look at that myself. Why couldn't I see them? I don't know. I could make some guesses but that's all they would be.
I didn't see the realities either till i stopped and looked, and until i read what others had to say about this. I think it's due to social programming and brow-beating... must do the work, must do the work.

I now see the model of the paid savior who "validates" you at $150/hr as extremely problematic. It's putting your self-worth and sanity outside your self and in the hands of some clinical BFF who alleges to make you whole with her "professional concern". The message is... your self-worth must be bought like a commodity, do not try this at home.

This arrangement, depending on someone to furnish sense of self, seems to contradict everything that therapy preaches.
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Default Nov 15, 2019 at 09:42 AM
  #31
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. . .

I now see the model of the paid savior who "validates" you at $150/hr as extremely problematic. It's putting your self-worth and sanity outside your self and in the hands of some clinical BFF who alleges to make you whole with her "professional concern". The message is... your self-worth must be bought like a commodity, do not try this at home.

This arrangement, depending on someone to furnish sense of self, seems to contradict everything that therapy preaches.
To be fair, I was the one who interacted with the therapists, and therapy in general, as a paid savior -- due to issues I went into therapy with. But therapy didn't help me to get out of that . . .viewpoint?

It's also complicated because I had a different attitude internally, maybe in a separate "part", but that didn't make it into the room very well or often. Again, issues I went into therapy with, which I would have expected to get "help" with.

I went to therapists and bought my self-worth because I could not do it at home. I did try, in various ways.

I think therapy preaches, come to me to get your self-worth and that will eventually result in you internalizing it for yourself.

Nope. Not for me. And not for how many others? Nobody is counting. Therapists are blindly following their own theory, but as an idealization. . .Not checking it substantively with reality.

What I've tried to do with Kohut's theory is somewhat different -- it seemed to match something I had no good words or concepts for when I came across it and I have used the concepts of the tripolar self to try to help develop my own sense of self, and providing the direction to continue to look for people to "twin" with, which my own internal sense feels is lacking and the theory helps me understand more about that, and why the support group I lucked into 5 years ago has been more "help"' than a therapist.

The theory also suggests that other people may have difficulty in other foundation poles of the self. Why the twin part was so difficult for me I'm not entirely sure. Maybe it was that rejection feeling that was so unbearable, and so numbed out, in relation to how I felt my (more socially conscious) grandmother and aunts felt about me

The knowledge about trauma has made some good advances in the last 50 years.

Knowledge about social relationships and self -- not so much. The current "experts" in that area are not, IMO, worth following. But a lot of us do follow them. . .for social/emotional reasons that people don't really have a good science for yet. Maybe we never will -- but I think we can/could do a lot better.

Still, for me, it felt like the basic core self or something was traumatized out of existence. And how that can come back??? My conscious, intentional experience could do little for it, directly. So I think that's a conundrum for lots of people.

No current theory, that I've come across, addresses that adequately.
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Default Nov 15, 2019 at 02:35 PM
  #32
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Knowledge about social relationships and self -- not so much. The current "experts" in that area are not, IMO, worth following. But a lot of us do follow them. . .for social/emotional reasons that people don't really have a good science for yet. Maybe we never will -- but I think we can/could do a lot better.

Still, for me, it felt like the basic core self or something was traumatized out of existence. And how that can come back??? My conscious, intentional experience could do little for it, directly. So I think that's a conundrum for lots of people.

No current theory, that I've come across, addresses that adequately.
I agree, and this is part of the reason I never engaged too much in those questions/discussions about modern neuroscientific theories and studies relating to your sense of self interests. I've thought about it quite a bit but the way you are addressing it, the way it comes up in your life, is not really something actual science has investigated or even seems to have an interest to investigate. As we discussed a bit before, most neuroscience studies attempt to target the phenomenon of consciousness, aesthetics, morality, appropriate reality filtering (i.e. psychosis) or barriers to expected interpersonal relating/interactions (i.e. autism) when it comes to "self", but I don't think that's what you are interested in here.

You certainly don't seem to have a problem with consciousness per se, you seem more aware than average, including aware of the lacking and problems, when it comes to you and more complex realms. These developmental questions regarding the self are something different IMO. Do you think that you have issues with proper information filtering and reality testing on your own, or an inability to use your human social environment for feedback (and thus get stuck in uncontrolled internal fantasies too much)?

Maybe part of the issue is that you are actually too conscious about too many aspects of all this, which makes you realize holes and limitations that many people don't, and it inhibits your social functioning because you keenly sense it's not as simple... it makes you self-conscious and less confident but, on the upside, also humble, curious and open-minded. I've seen a few other people with very nuanced, sensitive and evolved intuitions and most of them seem to struggle with social functioning and fitting in a great deal. Most also tend to have a form of internal antagonism that they try to expand and apply to larger realities "to improve the world" but, sadly, often fail to realize it and get lost, isolated and not really able to connect with other people effectively.

If you have such an interest in the twinship thing but feel that you have not been successful - how do you tend to identify and approach such people? Do you feel your expectations, and the way it is implemented, are realistic?

To be honest, I personally am not sure that this whole "sense of self" is always so related to social support and trauma, that it is primarily trauma that isolates this sense of self or prevents it from developing fully. Unfortunately I cannot really back up my instinct with evidence and don't feel comfortable getting into it too deeply exactly because I cannot back it up well enough, but it is a strong intuition I have. I believe we know, or even just suspect, much less about all this currently than how complex it is indeed in reality. I also think it may go beyond the kinds of things neuroscience has explored so far, beyond human social realities/connections, even developmental psychology and biology.

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Default Nov 15, 2019 at 03:23 PM
  #33
An interesting speculative article that is probably appropriate for a psychology forum like this, not going into technical details much but discussing some aspects of the self and self-relating, albeit quite abstract:
A Connection between Sense of Beauty and Sense of Self | Psychology Today

I personally have a long-standing a deep-seated interest in these kinds of connections to aesthetics - it was even a strong element of why I became interested in math in my youth, driven by a sense that what drove me to intriguing mathematical problems/solutions was very similar to what tends to drive me to beauty, harmony, problem solving, optimizing and improvement. I definitely feel that I tend to filter my social relations using many of the same cognitive and emotional brain functions - if you will, the same neuronal toolkit for science, arts, relationships, philosophy, spirituality. There is no easy way to describe or test it though.

Do you ever feel connected to beauty and aesthetic experience in the way the above article describes? I do, and that is most often what brings me to tears when it happens - I definitely don't cry easily but that sort of thing moves me very easily. I am bringing this up because, I believe, it is an important source of and connection to the self. I've lost this connection to beauty and harmony (and the opposite, dissonance) several times in my life and they were always the most disturbing states of losing identity... identity I knew well before, but something transiently broke it. Whenever I feel this sense of connection to beauty and aesthetic is intact, I usually also feel generally quite healthy emotionally. I know it is very abstract though and can only hope it makes sense to others.

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Default Nov 15, 2019 at 07:22 PM
  #34
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I think therapy preaches, come to me to get your self-worth and that will eventually result in you internalizing it for yourself.
Yes, agree, but if you told a therapist you had a relationship in the real world from which you were seeking your sense of self, the therapist would likely carry on about how wrong that is. That's the essential hypocrisy of therapy.

And the psychology of the therapist who believes their role is to be dispenser of self-worth... truly disturbing.

Seems to me the self-worth you buy from a therapist is a sham version that needs to be continually bolstered from the outside, thus people get trapped in therapy needing that regular dosing of external validation. Or, worse, the therapist becomes rejecting or shaming and the client goes off a cliff.
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Default Nov 15, 2019 at 09:55 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Xynesthesia2 View Post
An interesting speculative article that is probably appropriate for a psychology forum like this, not going into technical details much but discussing some aspects of the self and self-relating, albeit quite abstract:
A Connection between Sense of Beauty and Sense of Self | Psychology Today

I personally have a long-standing a deep-seated interest in these kinds of connections to aesthetics - it was even a strong element of why I became interested in math in my youth, driven by a sense that what drove me to intriguing mathematical problems/solutions was very similar to what tends to drive me to beauty, harmony, problem solving, optimizing and improvement. I definitely feel that I tend to filter my social relations using many of the same cognitive and emotional brain functions - if you will, the same neuronal toolkit for science, arts, relationships, philosophy, spirituality. There is no easy way to describe or test it though.

Do you ever feel connected to beauty and aesthetic experience in the way the above article describes? I do, and that is most often what brings me to tears when it happens - I definitely don't cry easily but that sort of thing moves me very easily. I am bringing this up because, I believe, it is an important source of and connection to the self. I've lost this connection to beauty and harmony (and the opposite, dissonance) several times in my life and they were always the most disturbing states of losing identity... identity I knew well before, but something transiently broke it. Whenever I feel this sense of connection to beauty and aesthetic is intact, I usually also feel generally quite healthy emotionally. I know it is very abstract though and can only hope it makes sense to others.
Thanks. I had never heard of the default mode network before. Very interesting!
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Default Nov 15, 2019 at 10:16 PM
  #36
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Yes, agree, but if you told a therapist you had a relationship in the real world from which you were seeking your sense of self, the therapist would likely carry on about how wrong that is. That's the essential hypocrisy of therapy.

And the psychology of the therapist who believes their role is to be dispenser of self-worth... truly disturbing.
Yes, but the therapists apparently can't see, or care, about that any more than I could see, or care, that my ideal plan about not eating was. . .maybe not so ideal? And included possible consequences that hadn't even been in the picture when I made the plan?

Disturbing, once you see see it. Deservedly disturbing. But the therapists aren't disturbed because they are not seeing it, not looking for it, and not hearing it when patients tell them about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BudFox View Post
. . .
Seems to me the self-worth you buy from a therapist is a sham version that needs to be continually bolstered from the outside, thus people get trapped in therapy needing that regular dosing of external validation. Or, worse, the therapist becomes rejecting or shaming and the client goes off a cliff.
This is the difficult part. Clients with poor self-worth, or poor sense of self as I use the term (others may use it differently), are the very ones who are vulnerable to going off the cliff when the therapist rejects or shames.

Now, I don't think I would -- but that was then. And going off a cliff, I think, is more than just "getting worse before you get better". It can be really devastating to a life.
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Default Nov 17, 2019 at 07:14 AM
  #37
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This is the difficult part. Clients with poor self-worth, or poor sense of self as I use the term (others may use it differently), are the very ones who are vulnerable to going off the cliff when the therapist rejects or shames.
Do you use "sense of self" synonymously to self-worth (or self-esteem)? If yes, I think I've misunderstood completely . Low self-esteem would be much more straightforward than what I was trying to speculate when I attempted to interpret your posts about this topic.
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Default Nov 18, 2019 at 11:35 AM
  #38
Low self-esteem is one thing.

A complete absence -- a zero -- is another.

And, for me, it's not like a feeling of emptiness, though that may be a related thing, I don't know.

I did have self esteem for what might be called "false self" accomplishments.

I think the zero feeling and whatever goes along with it is related to the rejected feeling in my early life, as I have mentioned. I now tolerate, can tolerate, the fear of rejection, which I also feel. I did not so much actually (feel the) fear earlier in my life as I was focusing on "what to do" or something.

I still do not feel that I have value, much, to anyone else in the world and have no value, much, to/for myself either.

However, my adult kids and support group members are not giving me signs that they are rejecting me, or being fake in their acceptance of me, and I try to be aware and careful not to be too needy, intense, and self-focused when I'm feeling anxious, lonely, etc. I no longer feel that I have to cut off/dissociate/numb out those emotions, as I had learned to do in my early life.

Does this make more sense? I know it is my experience only.

If therapy had worked for me, if I had lucked into a therapist who had the competence or temperament or something to help (and not hurt and add more pain, etc.), then I probably wouldn't have done so much research and looking inside to try to figure things out for myself. But it doesn't seem to me that unique, even if not that common.
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