Old therapist talking with new therapist

I'm sorry if my last suggestion sounded harsh; didn't mean for it to. I just wanted to ask some questions that could help with your decision-making and introspection.

Also, not only do I think your boundaries are violated from T #1, but also that T #1 violated T #2's boundaries (almost in an infantilizing way, it seems, with the "let me speak to you privately to 'caution' you about my old client/your new client"). Your new T may not be able to admit that your old T violated his/her boundaries, but it sure sounds that way to me. Hence, my reasoning for stating red flags are present.

T#2 said that T#1 wrote to her saying that she (T#1) feels that I am trying to control by wanting to know what is spoken about me. T#1 also said that based on past instances, when I try to control her, others, or situations, things turn out badly.

If I may speak for myself, however, while it seems like control on the surface, I'm doing it to keep myself safe. While I think that there are some wisdom and knowledge T#1 could pass on to T#2, I don't think that T#1 is necessarily accurate in all her conceptualization of me. Additionally, I really want to understand/learn how T#1 understood me and conceptualized my case. After all, it was three years and six months of deep, committed work. I am not trying to control T#1, T#2, or the situation by wanting their conversations to be shared with me.

Also, if someone tells you to promise them something before s/he tells you what that something is, would you be able to promise them? In other words, I think it's also possibly difficult for T#2 to agree to T#1's terms about keeping the content of the conversation private without even knowing what T#1 would share with her.

T#2 also said that she thinks it is only "humane" for me to know what is said about me. T#2 said that she has always been able to give her patients a summary of what is said between her and patients' former therapists.

It is unclear what T#2 meant when she said that it is a violation of boundary. It is unclear whether she meant that it is a violation of professional boundary or a violation of her personal boundary.

T#1 did say to me that whatever she shares with T#2 is out of support for my work and relationship with T#2, not to hurt it.

I'm so sorry you are dealing with all this.

From my perspective on the outside looking in, T#1 violated T#2's boundaries (both professionally and personally) because T#2 can handle his/her work by him-/herself; that's what they're trained and licensed to do. The "control" issue or any other mental health issue that does NOT involve a danger to yourself or others is a confidential manner, which your new T does NOT need to know about, especially if you are seeking a second opinion.

Also, if these were NOT T's and were instead peers in your life, I'd say that this sounded like "drama" and was "toxic." The blanket statement, "I'm doing this for your best interests" or some derivative thereof may not be honest or intentional in this case.

The damage of their violating boundaries of trust only makes your treatment with T#2 compromised.

If it were me, I'd explain to both parties that T#1's violation of boundaries and triangulation of the relationship between client and T#2 has caused a toxic environment that is NOT beneficial to your treatment. Therefore, based on your rights as a client, you are seeking treatment elsewhere.

But that's just me.

If you are required to stay there, then assert your boundaries and explain that "control issues" or "impulse issues" or whatever other issues are not the same as a danger to self or others, and are NOT required disclosures to new therapists.

And even if you had control issues, their example of taking control of your choices and violating boundaries with you and your second T only demonstrates an example of the same behavior they are claiming you have, which does NOT benefit you at all, no matter what they say or what their intentions are.

This upsets me dearly because you are not getting the proper treatment.

But, what you can do is make a choice for yourself and not feel intrigued to stay, or too helpless to make a decision. You are smart and intelligent enough to make a decision that is best for you, despite your symptoms - whatever those may be. You can decide for a healthier treatment plan. And I hope you do.

Meanwhile, my sympathies go out to you and T#2. I also hope that T#1 learns about triangulation and how that can create a toxic environment. I also hope that T#2 and YOU understand, as well, that triangulation is not the answer, and is often detrimental to treatment, especially when T#1 is NOT the ONLY one who is triangulating this; sometimes all parties are influenced to triangulate the situation, regardless of who started it. It sounds like a toxic situation for you.

Back to step 1, please, speaking of boundaries. Whose idea was it to have the two ts meet or talk, to begin with? Not that it matters who, but that seems unusual to me to begin with. Ive never had prev t meet next t. Pdoc and t talk, maybe.

Eta - its like trying to jump out of two airplanes at once. Nope. You leave one, then you can jump from the other. The safety in the endeavor is not improved by hooking yourself to both? Nor the ultimate achievement.

What are some positive - not negative - reasons why T#1 wants her conversation with T#2 kept private between them? Any ideas? I asked T#2, but she said that she doesn't know.

I had to look up the term triangulation. I don't like that. It's one of the reasons why I had been pushing for a series of conversations based on an agenda. However, T#1 is set on her giving us only one three-way meeting while the content of any consultations/conversations between her and T#2 cannot be reported to or shared with me. I do agree that there's something about this set up that feels toxic. I would also hate for it to get in the way of my work and relationship with T#2 because I feel some bit of a connection with T#2 - something that doesn't come easy for me.

All I want is for some repairing to be done between T#1 and me, for her to pass on her knowledge and understanding of me to T#2, and for her to help me understand what I achieved with her in three years and six months of work. She listed some things to me in email when we terminated, however, I don't feel that I achieved all of what she listed, and for the things that I agree with her that I achieved, I want to understand how we/I got there. That's all. After that, I want to move forward in my therapy work and relationship with T#2.

It sounds like your termination wasn't smooth with T#1, and it sounds like you haven't addressed your concerns about not having benefited from the treatments you received from T#1. It sounds like T#1 inflated her termination list by indicating her missed perceptions of how you responded to certain treatments. If you feel like T#1's list is inaccurate (for whatever reason), then you should mention that to T#2. I was confused about your prior relationship with T#1, since I thought you canceled and didn't know her. Now that I know you had previously had a longstanding relationship with T#1 and have not felt a sense of closure with the termination, then it seems like you're still attached to T#1, and you're having a hard time letting go. If you have had a hard time letting go of T#1, and then tried to ask T#1 to speak with T#2, then that would be a form of triangulation on your part. If T#1 decided to speak with T#2 of her own volition, largely because you are not adhering to her boundaries related to the termination between you and T#1, then that makes termination and moving on and closure all the more harmful for you, since it perpetuates any hardships you may be perceiving from the termination, and it hinders the relationship you can have with T#2; this, too, is triangulation, which isn't fair to everyone involved.

It sounds like attachment, triangulation, and boundaries are all issues involved in this scenario, and that everyone involved now is at a toxic crossroads. It's a toxic double-bind that only a qualified supervisor or a qualified therapist can rectify, or that you as the client can, if you are capable, make the choice to seek treatment elsewhere and find a healthy environment.

Asking about what positives someone else meant is like asking us to read minds; we don't know your T#1, and even if you read out the list, we don't understand the dynamics and history you and T#1 had together. We cannot speak for T#1; we can only speak from what we are hearing you say here.

It sounds like you are having a tough time letting go, that you don't want to seek treatment elsewhere, that you are still attached to your T#1, that triangulation is an issue for at least two parties involved (you and T#1, transference and countertransference, maybe), and that whatever positives may exist have been masked by all the negatives that ensued thereafter.

You may be seeking reasons to stay or to continue to hold onto T#1, but you will not get the answers you seek from anyone other than yourself. Only you can decide.

Not a chance. I'd tell new therapist that you appreciate her telling you that, and that you just aren't comfortable with not knowing what they talked about. Tell her you are worried that it will affect your relationship with her.

I have been thinking about this.

I think that my former therapist is actually violating HIPAA. It's not uncommon for current and former therapists to talk with each other. I worked with the former therapist for three years and six months; it was a deep, committed relationship and work. While I do not agree with all of the former therapist's conceptualization of me, I think that she has some important and helpful insights that she could pass on to the new therapist. The new therapist agrees with this, too. Therefore, both the former and the current therapists would like for me to sign the release/consent for them to talk with each other.

Under HIPAA, patients have a right to access their treatment records. Since the conversation between the former and the current therapists are part of the release/consent agreement, then according to HIPAA, I have access to what is shared about me.

If it is a traditional consultation in which the new therapist is consulting with the former therapist or another colleague, then I would not have access to those content. It would be under the new therapist's discretion to share her consultations with me. But when it comes to conversations that are from my release/consent, I have access to it. Does it make sense? Therefore, I think that the former therapist is actually violating HIPAA by not allowing me access to what is shared with the new therapist under the release/consent.

Report her if you feel it was a HIPPA violation. Of course, your new T will be culpable in this for allowing it. Both T's would be at risk. But first T would be more responsible. Either way, you will wind up having to see a new T (#3) eventually, leaving behind a painful mess that could have been resolved better by T1 and T2.

Honestly, I like that your new wants to tell you about the conversation. I would be apprehensive to have Ts talk and not tell me about the conversations. My T and Emdr T talked twice. Since I was actually seeing then at the same time they both told me about the conversations and what they said. They both believe strongly in transparency.

I've only had a few therapists and psychiatrists, so my experience probably doesn't have much weight. In any case, I've signed a few releases of information, but I don't actually know if they've talked. But even if they have, as long as I've signed a release, there's nothing that says they're obligated to tell me what they talk about. To me, it's the same as why you can't/don't read your own chart/file/whatever (at least, I don't anyway). Some of it is just standard practice and the other, I think, is to protect the therapeutic medium

Is the new therapist younger than the previous one? If so, it could be a difference of philosophy. For example, the psych hospital I work at, everything used to be shrouded, so to speak. Not in a bad way, I don't think, just not in front of the patient and between different people in the treatment team. But now, as time has progressed, there's more and more push for greater transparency, so they end up doing rounds in two parts: the first part being what you would traditionally expect and then the second part, they ask the patient not to comment until the end and the treatment team talks amongst each other as if they were in the office, away from the patient, but with the patient right there. It's called Open Dialogue

My psychiatrist and therapist talk readily. I trust them. I know they have my best interests in mind. It is anxiety producing, but I trust them.

On a side note, at the VA, everyone on my treatment team, including T's and doctors - current and past - all have access to the notes. If they want to converse, they don't let me know about it (unless I sign a consent form, which is often vague yet required for continued treatment - a catch-22 it seems). I don't care. I can always request to see a new T if the current T doesn't work out; they're short-term T's anyway, so I'd eventually be assigned a new one anyway. I can always contact the OIG if I have a complaint. Sometimes the VA Crisis Line will contact the OIG for me if I complain to them instead. There's a lot of accountability at the VA, even though there are some improvements that any institution could use. Honestly, I trust the VA more now than the civilian therapists. The VA doesn't play games, and they often have clear goals (not always, but often). Then again, most patients at the VA are veterans, so we have that training behind us, as well as that culture.

In the civilian world, like in your case, discussions between T's may or may not be ethical (regardless if you are aware about it). But once you've been made aware, you've got to ask yourself if it is beneficial to you, or if it is a reaction from your old T. It could be both. It could also be an unethical exchange of previous patient bashing, which I've seen and heard all too well in academic and personal settings, since I've been on the other side of treatment.

The point is to find out what works best for you, and if you can move on and trust your new T with the info, and with your care, most importantly. (((safe hugs)))