fired by text

I never mentioned sui in text. I had it on my diary card because I was supposed to keep track of it. Actually I had called her and she replied to me in text. And so then I replied to her texts.

I have some traits of BPD, but not the unstable relationship one. I find CBT difficult. The thing that I was finding helpful about DBT was the mindfulness stuff. But I just started. So I kind of suck at it.

@maybeblue

Do not beat yourself up. When we learn something new we all make mistakes.... That is why we are learning. Thanks for clarifying the sui diary card thingy.

I am glad that mindfulness helps. There are groups and treatments for only mindfulness, if the rest of the DBT does not apply to you.

I cannot do mindfulness meditation because it worsens my conditions. Being aware and cognizant, that I can do.

In DBT terms, however, mindfulness is about learning empathy that you lack for yourself and/or for others.

Mindfulness in other venues means different things. It all depends on what your target areas are.

Can you stick with the DBT group and find a new T while reporting the T who quit on you? That sounds like the best route for you, since DBT is going well but the T is not.

Mindfulness in DBT terms is about teaching you empathy for yourself and others. When you lack empathy for yourself, it affects others. When others are reactive to our own pain, mindfulness teaches you how to see how your actions may affect others or how others respond to you while also showing you how you respond to and/or contribute to others. Some people who are prone to internalizing others' beliefs about themselves will react negatively and emotionally instead of proactively because mindfulness or awareness or empathy are lacking. Being too needy is a behavior that stems from lack of empathy for one's self and in turn lack of self-efficacy to problem-solve so that we do not burden others in excess. That said, in terms of real emotional abuse and microaggressions, the best option is to have enough self-empathy to reduce stereotype threat and proactively assert one's rights by filing a formal complaint against discriminatory or unethical practices. Mindfulness makes you aware of situations, but there are times when you need not blame yourself for someone else's actions. In your case, the T was wrong, you deserve better than that, and you deserve more empathy for yourself. Also, the texting platform was their idea and their issue. Thwy did not put enough boundaries in place to prevent T burnout or prevent excessive client use. The boundaries were not made clear, which is on them.

The part of mindfulness that I think would be particularly helpful for me would be being present in the current moment...living my life now instead of thinking about the past and ruminating about the future. Anyway, CBT doesn't seem to work very well for me because when I'm depressed I have all kinds of thoughts that are screwed up, but then when I'm not depressed they are all gone. But attempting to change them when I'm depressed just makes me feel like the therapist is blaming me: "you are thinking wrong."

The emotional regulation part applies to me a lot. And I don't think improving interpersonal effectiveness hurts anyone. The problem is that the group is run by the same therapist that I do individual therapy with. So I can't do the group without also doing therapy with her.

I hate the meditation part of mindfulness too. Imagining water dropping in a pond or whatever just makes me either angry or anxious. And trying to make my mind blank is next to impossible. But I have noticed that simply focusing on my emotion rather than fighting it doesn't make it worse. It might make it slightly better.

If your T is running the group, good luck in staying. The hardest part for some individuals is walking away from those you grew attached to for whatever reason. You could say to your T, "I am using my wise mind and exiting a toxic relationship you created between us, and I am proactively going to find another group and T that does not terminate unethically." That would be one exit plan. Another would be to simply leave and shake the dust off your heels. Staying in a relationship like that speaks to your lack of empathy for yourself. It also speaks to your fears of letting go of a dead-end relationship. CBT teaches similarly as wise mind when you aclnowledge your emotions and irrational thoughts. The Gestalt method helps to shed light on what irrational thoughts exist in the relationship. To proactively change those irrational thoughts while showing yourself empathy and looking at your emotions is wise mind. You need not beat yourself up for irrational thoughts and their connected emotions. Living in the present and not the past means you will move on and find a new T or you will stay and risk this interaction again, if the odds are in your T's favor. If you are able to work it out with your T, great. But staying is a risk. You have to be mindful to yourself what that risk is.

I agree. Staying is not going to make me feel good about myself, unless she were to actually apologize and truly want to repair the relationship. And I suppose to be honest that is what I am hoping for...but not really expecting. And if that does not happen, I will feel better about myself for facing her and actually listening to what the problem is. And telling her face to face that the text was a bad move. I just wish it was easier to find a therapist that both has the skills I need and also is willing to deal with my emotions and my fear of loss of control. It seems very unfair to punish a client for demonstrating symptoms for what they came to therapy for in the first place.

@maybeblue

There are a lot of therapists who are trained in DBT as well as other things. They even have a DBT for those with obsessive-compulsive issues, which differs a bit, I think. I've met so many who have been trained in DBT and CBT - trauma and dissociation - not so much. So, there are other options! They even have DBT at the VA for a lot of veterans. Even though it doesn't work for me, it works for a lot of people like you, other veterans I know, etc. You really do have options in that area.

I took DBT for a year about 15 years ago; it was NOT administered properly, so I cannot speak to its efficacy for me. For others I've known at the VA, it works great for them. It's administered by a team of two T's, and everyone has their own individual T. Every group and T are run differently. For veterans, there is no texting. There's different online apps that anyone (including you) can download for different things. I think the VA has a PTSD app, a mindfulness app, and some other apps that are completely free to use. But no texting, no online support groups, just the app. The apps are kind of cool, and you pick and choose what works for you. Ideally, you'd show your T your progress on the apps and other homework.

Anyway, your T is not the only T in your area that has skills in DBT; chances are, there are other T's in your area (maybe not other groups, but you can always ask). Some people do DBT without a group, too. You can maybe go on the BPD forum to ask some of the others for tips, suggestions, etc. They would have more expertise in DBT in that forum, I'm sure, since DBT was initially created for BPD, but has been extended to many other areas of mental illness today. It works for some, but not for others. For you, it sounds like it is something you are benefiting from, and that's awesome!

You're brave for facing your T. That's good! Just be prepared for potential gaslighting, and what you would say in response to that without reacting too harshly or self-defeating (i.e., blaming yourself). For example, if you face her and she apologizes, that's great. But if she says something like, "You didn't respect my boundaries; you texted too much; you weren't mindful about how your actions would affect me; I was using my wise mind to end a toxic relationship you started" - meaning you, the client, then those words in whatever shape or form they come out will probably cause a bunch of emotions within you, and those emotions may be too strong for you to proactively assert your own boundaries and the wrong that she had done, though you may be able to say those things while screaming or crying or making threats or whatever other reactive emotions that can occur when someone gaslights you, or you will take all the blame, cry, walk out, and feel sui from that situation - those are all potential reactions that can happen when a T is gaslighting you, even if there is some truth embedded within a lot of victim-blaming on the client, when the client was NOT at fault for everything.

So, the best way to prep for gaslighting is to do what lawyers do: Have a mock trial, only, with the DBT skills you've learned. Since I don't know much about DBT (I mainly know CBT), then you can ask others here on PC who may know about DBT. If you make a post in the BPD forum, you're likely to get more responses than here in the Psychotherapy forum, unless there's some forum for DBT that I'm unaware of, in which case, try there. Of course, we'll still respond here to you (((safe hugs))), but if you want more direct support for DBT, especially in this case, I'd try posting in a different forum where others are likely to catch your thread and respond more quickly.

I hope my responses don't frustrate you, but I'm doing the best I can with limited knowledge. I care though. I don't want to see you hurt by that T. I'm sure your husband feels the same way, maybe, which I'm basing on one of your posts where you said your husband was "pissed." I hope your husband can help you face the T when you go there together.

More power to you for being brave. Just prepare in advance to do the best you can do with the skills you have now. Prepare in advance for any response, and assert yourself with boundaries of your own - for you!

There is a massive problem when a client is punished for demonstrating the symptoms that brought them to therapy in the first place. If this happens , the therapist is repeating something that is dysfunctional. That is neither healthy or therapeutic and indicates that the therapist has issues. Do not be gaslighted into not seeing what the reality is. If she cannot accept any responsibility for her part in what's gone wrong , it will tell you all you need to know. I know that's really difficult though and it will hurt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Out There There is a massive problem when a client is punished for demonstrating the symptoms that brought them to therapy in the first place. If this happens , the therapist is repeating something that is dysfunctional. That is neither healthy or therapeutic and indicates that the therapist has issues. Do not be gaslighted into not seeing what the reality is. If she cannot accept any responsibility for her part in what's gone wrong , it will tell you all you need to know. I know that's really difficult though and it will hurt.

I agree entirely. It is nothing short of tragic that many mental health professionals are profoundly imbalanced people who refuse to look at themselves honestly, but are all too willing to gaslight their patients. A sick power-trip.

OMG. I haven't read the rest of the thread, but I had to jump in here.

First, NO - you did not do anything wrong. In fact, the paragraph where you talk about being overwhelmed during the session because of your emotions, tell her that you didn't understand what she was doing, and ask for her to be more clear and collaborative - WOW. I thought that was amazing and perfect. I mean, seriously, SUPER GOOD JOB on a) figuring out what was going on with you and b) ASKING FOR WHAT YOU NEED.

I found it very respectful, you didn't come across as blaming or accusing her or as hostile, and I would imagine that most therapists would be glad to have this. It reminds them about how you work and what you need, and would help them work with you in a more effective way. It's great!!!

When she says this: "I am a DBT therapist. It's all I know how to do. So you can be assured we aren't doing supportive therapy."

It feels like a red flag to me. Are there really therapists out there who are just DBT and literally don't know ANY other therapy skills? That seems so limited and improbable to me. Honestly, it sounds like she has a huge pile of her own issues that she hasn't dealt with, and might be using this as a really useful way to avoid getting triggered by other people? Like, "oh no, you have emotional problems - well that's not really my domain. I can tell you what skill to use, but don't expect me to actually summon any kind of empathy, because that's not really what I'm trained to do. Sorry, Charlie!"

It frustrates me, and again, I'm really surprised. It seems very... weird and offputting and de-humanizing to me (but I haven't done DBT myself, so grain of salt!)

But THIS... THIS RIGHT HERE: "I don't want to get burned out by answering too many texts or between session phone calls."

OMG - this just sets me off. It sounds like she's making YOU responsible for HER emotional state. It's not your responsibility to help her not get burned out, that's on her... she can choose to not respond to texts, she can do self-care, she can ask you to not text as much or give you a limit (on content or number of texts). But it really, really bugs me to see her talking about her own emotional state here, as if you did something wrong.

You didn't! Of course you didn't! She's responsible for her own mental health - your job is to show up and work on your own stuff.

(This may be a bit of a trigger for me, so apologies if I'm a bit... over-enthusiastic here )

I do think that... in retrospect... you might have held off on the discussion (after she posted that) until you got to session. It feels like a lot to try to unpack via text, especially when she's saying that she doesn't want to burn out. But, I still think it's her responsibility to deal with that - not to just throw you out!

Like, I'd expect her to say something like, "Good points. Let's talk about it at the next session." - that's it! Fairly simple, not burnout-inducing, a polite way to say, "Hey, I don't want to have this discussion via text" - plus then you guys could have actually discussed what was going on in a more productive way (since it can be hard to understand things via text, right?) - easier to clarify and get into details.

And... oh wait, I missed this part. So, you literally ended with this: "I am sorry if I was too long winded. I don't need to talk about it more right now. Thank you for not dumping me." -- and her response was to dump you (via text)?!?!?!?!?

I am so incredibly speechless at this point. And, I am so sorry! That is just.. incomprehensible to me. Like, seriously... I'm floored.

I know, you said you don't want to quit. I get that! Are you sure you're OK with continuing working with this person, who honestly is likely to cause you more pain (based on her reactions so far)? I mean, she's not likely to get *better*... my experience has been that therapists with red flags only get worse, even when you actively try to work on things and fit into what they want/need from you as a client, this is about unresolved stuff on her part and it just... isn't likely that she's going to transform herself into a good therapist while working with you. (I'm so sorry!)

"So did I do anything wrong or rude?"

Nope! I thought you were respectful and doing your best to make your needs known. I think your therapist handled things incredibly badly, and honestly, doesn't sound like she's done the work she needs to to be an effective, good therapist. She doesn't sound like someone who should be seeing people in therapy! Even in DBT... omg... especially in DBT (where I'm assuming that the majority of people struggle with BPD-type issues, which can be really hard for Ts to deal with) - she just seems... incompetent.

I'm so sorry. I don't really have any great advice. I'd dump her too, but I know that's not what you want. *hugs*

The thing is that she isn't incompetent. Not at all. The burnout thing isn't out of line for DBT therapists to say. One of the things about DBT is that is different from some other therapies is that the therapist discloses her own feelings and reactions about the client's behavior.

The part that is confusing to me is that generally they try to repair the relationship rather than run away. Or at least that is what clients are supposed to do. She did tell me in a later text that if we could make therapy effective for both of us she would continue to work with me. What I don't know is what "effective" means to her...and if I can live with whatever she wants. I could live with, and will suggest that I just not text her. I could live with not calling her either.

I probably could not live without expressing my opinions during session, although I don't think she has to agree with me.

If you have to suppress your own authenticity and feelings or what you say in order to maintain a relationship , this mirrors something from childhood that is dysfunctional and maladaptive. I don't really get " Oh , this is DBT so that doesn't apply " No healing comes from it , it's not healthy and it's not therapeutic. It's like you having to think how you MUST behave to make yourself acceptable in this relationship , and if you don't behave like that , there's something wrong with you. Disclosing the T's own feelings and reactions sounds like a green light to blame and shame. You won't feel like you can express your opinions in case your T burns out ? What's healthy about this ?!! Sorry you've been put in this position.

It sounds like what a child would say about their abusive parent, insofar that the child has been emotionally abused, expressed that emotional abuse to others, and then when others side with the child's pain, the child then "makes excuses" for their emotionally abusive parent. --There are similarities here in the transference-counter-transference relationship with you and your T.

Here's a suggestion: Take a look at the following websites. Continue to keep us updated and informed, as we want to support you with this issue you raised, but also consider reaching out to other sources and see what they say. Here are the websites:

TELL (therapy abuse dot org): TELL: Therapy Exploitation Link Line

TELL: Emotional Abuse in Psychotherapy | TELL: Therapy Exploitation Link Line

NOTE: You can email TELL and one mental health professional will reply to you. Explain to them **everything** you have explained to us here on PC. They will respond with an answer from the perspective of therapists who advocate for those who have been abused in therapy.

Good Therapy: How to Recognize Abuse in Therapy and What to Do About It

NOTE: You can see if there is a contact you can reach out to through Good Therapy if you are not convinced with any of the concerns other have presented. It's okay for you to seek many opinions on this, especially if you are having trouble letting go of a therapist whom you're attached to and/or whose opinion about you is *familiar* and therefore "acceptable." To me, it sounds like you're in an enmeshed relationship with your therapist at this point - at least from your own POV and explanation in quotations above; instead of you being consistent with your lamentations about your T, you've now changed it, per your quotation above, to your standing up for your T. PS: Did your T actually tell you all of the above? It still doesn't seem like your T has set clear treatment goals or boundaries for your relationship; it appears that your T is using "role play" or "Gestalt" without realizing it, even though your T claims that she is a "DBT-only therapist."

Patch: What is Therapist Abuse? | Odenton, MD Patch

Surviving Therapist Abuse: Treatment Abuse Checklist – Surviving Therapist Abuse

Better Help: https://www.betterhelp.com/advice/co...iAAEgIHk_D_BwE

NOTE: After reading the articles above, let us know what you think. Reading the articles above and reaching out to us here ARE RATIONAL AND WISE STEPS to help you when you're feeling distressed.

Many abused children grow up without knowing what is abusive, and they often think that what is "familiar" is actually "relational" and/or "normal," but their radar for detecting red flags is completely hindered with constant, ongoing brainwashing vis-à-vis cumulative and concurrent and ongoing/continuous traumatic stress in childhood. As an adult, it is no wonder that your "traits" are compromised, or your relations to yourself and others are confusing when you're not getting the results you expect yet you're feeling abused yet you revert back to familiar ways to make excuses for your abuser - only, now, you're in adulthood and having to make choices for yourself that you've never learned.

It really upsets me that you're hurting and now it seems like you're masking your pain with familiarity with your abusive T. Your T is unethical and abusive, but emotional abuse is so hard to detect and therefore to prosecute or set policies on. Nevertheless, you have a right to walk away from a situation that is not helpful for you. You have a right to be RESCUED (or to rescue yourself and therefore walk away) FROM BRAINWASHING and GASLIGHTING and STONEWALLING! In essence, we on PC have also went from supporting you to now trying to rescue you, when in essence, YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN MAKE THAT CHOICE to do what is best for you. WE ON PC WILL CONTINUE TO OFFER HELP TO YOU (((SAFE HUGS))), but we will continue to stand by what we are seeing as an abusive, unethical T.

I'm so very sorry you are struggling with this. It's hard to see someone have many opportunities to get out of an abusive situation and then stay in it. It's like witnessing a victim of intimate partner violence or domestic violence; it's hard when those who try to help continue to see the victim stay with their abusive other. In many ways, a therapeutic relationship can become so enmeshed that it may feel to both parties like an intimate partner violence when escape is countered with fears of letting their abuser down, relating to the abuser's issues and therefore wanting to help the abuser, fears of what will happen to you if you leave (as opposed to what will happen to you if you stay), self-blame when it comes to everything, gaslighting (which places blame on you instead of on the abuser), etc. It's hard to see, but that doesn't mean we aren't here to continue to remind you about the abuses that we're hearing from your own testimony about your relationship with your T.

Can you read the articles, reach out via contacting TELL, and let us know what you feel after having read those articles?

I agree wholeheartedly and fully with @Out There.

I also agree with what @guilloche said and so eloquently explained!

I agree completely with @BethRags assessment of the situation described!

This is probably really difficult for you Maybeblue , to be hearing these things from us here at PC. What is so ironic is that we go to therapy trying to heal from what's happened in childhood , and like to think we can trust these people. There are many advocates on this thread for you waving red flags about this. We cannot rescue you from this situation , no. But please rescue yourself from it and continue your processing and healing. When I look at situations when many people are saying pretty much the same thing , I ask myself how many people can be wrong ?

I really do appreciate everyone's advice and support. The "I don't want to get burned out" is a limit setting technique and it's in the DBT treatment manual. She has never expressed any negative feelings toward me before, which is one reason this is so surprising to me. It seems out of character.

I would not disagree with anyone in saying that the way she quit the relationship (through text message) was 100% wrong. The thing is that nobody, including me knows *why* she did it. I am assuming or guessing that she did it because of something she doesn't like about me. But another possibility is that she feels incompetent or thinks that she has been harming me or lacks the skills to treat me. That's one reason why quitting through text message is so wrong. It's not fair to me to not tell me why. It's also probably unethical. But she did offer me a session to talk about it and I'm going to go to find out why because I would rather know than not know and wonder for the rest of my life. Even if it is negative about me. Then at least I can think about it and see if there is any truth to it. Otherwise I'm just replaying sessions in my head trying to guess what it was, and I'll do that for months. I know me. I'm also taking my husband with me for moral support.

I think that I am more attached to the therapy than the therapist. I will say that she is a good teacher. She has explained some of those skills in a way that I can actually understand. I haven't worked with her long enough to be enmeshed I don't think. If it were easy to get into another DBT program I might do that. But it isn't. I drive 2.5 hours to see this therapist and she is the closest DBT certified therapist there is. You don't have to be certified to be a DBT therapist, but there are no DBT groups near me at all. I live in a rural area. And to be honest, I don't think I would attend a therapy group in my small town. I am somewhat prominent in certain areas and I mostly hide my mental illness.

I don't know if I can get past the text message thing and work with her again. It will depend on how she responds when I bring it up. I do agree about getting advice from other people. I appreciate the TELL and other resources. What I have already done is reach out to her licensing board (anonymously) and also to the DBT certification site (also anonymously) to see if I can get some advice. It's the weekend so I haven't heard back, but I'll let you know what I hear. I really am not eliminating the possibility of reporting her to her board. I'm not defending her actions on quitting through text message at all. But I do still believe that the "burned out" thing was consistent with what I have read about DBT.

I really do appreciate the support.

@maybeblue

The "burnout" in the manuals you are referring to are for therapists, not for clients.

You, as the client, are NOT responsible for your T's feelings. Your T should never have disclosed her feelings. Your T is responsible for her own burnout, not you. Your T is responsible for creating platforms to reduce burnout in their job, including the administration of DBT. You are not nor will you ever be responsible for that. If she puts that on you, which she already has, that is gaslighting. Gaslighting is a form of emotional abuse. Blaming you for her burnout, no matter how you acted or behaved, is her issue. It will always be her issue. It is never your fault.

The training manual is supposed to be for therapists only.

The DBT workbooks or worksheets are for clients.

There's a difference. You are not responsible for the training manual. You are the client.

You can hear what your T says, and you will have an opportunity to stand your ground if she uses gaslighting tactics. You can choose whatever you feel is best for you, but we're here to provide feedback from what we're reading.

It sounds like you have a strong enough sense of self to know what you want, in this case, you want to find some answers. You can use that same strength to figure out what you don't want and didn't want what happened to you.

You say that you're not attached, but most people who are not attached and receive a disrespect like this will walk away. Those with attachments will want closure and an explanation. With all the best intentions, a closing or exiting discussion may or may not provide closure; it may serve to cut at wounds more deeply, especially if the offender uses that to further stonewall, gaslight, or change the topic. But, some people learn through living the experience (i.e., "the hard way"), and so to each his or her own in such regard.

We just don't want to see you hurt.

I hope you get some supportive feedback from other sources. I'm glad you were able to reach out.

Also, although it is so easy for those who are helping (i.e., us here on PC) to express or share in the same pain that you are feeling or are avoiding feeling, but in the end, it's healthy for us here on PC to support you in whatever capacity we can support you, but that we all know that only you can face your own pain (supporters, therapists, or others cannot feel the pain for you, as much as it feels validating to hear from others the pain which you feel but are not able to feel or express, for whatever reason). Again, you are not responsible for anyone else's feelings. In the same vein, we are not responsible for your pain. None of us are responsible for our therapists' feelings. Our therapists are not responsible for our feelings. Those in positions of power, however, are responsible for creating toxic environments, toxic relationships, harm (not feelings, but harm to their clients, including emotional/psychological harm; even though we are responsible for our behaviors and feelings in response to such harms - different things, but hard to differentiate when we're in the middle of it).

Best of luck to you! We're here to support you, but we just hope you are able to identify the (true) feelings you have in this manner. We've heard both feelings from you, but they seem like shift changes instead of integrations, if that makes sense. In other words, it seems you shifted from feeling hurt by your T to now feeling open and hopeful for your T; it seems like you went from a hurt/hopeless feeling to a strong/hopeful feeling - two different sides of a pendulum, as opposed to an integrated "I'm going to feel upset for being harmed, and I'm going to hold the other person responsible, but I will see what the person will say without making excuses for the other person, and without disrespecting myself by staying in the relationship or hoping for something that is strongly unlikely to be fruitful, no matter how profusely apologetic the T seems at that final meeting."

We're all offering you tools to help you stand up for yourself, face your feelings, face your truths, and find a different T so that you can get the treatment you deserve.

I'm sorry your area doesn't offer as many DBT groups and/or T's. That must be hard for so many there. (((safe hugs)))

We do care. We just hope that the meeting turns out okay and that you're not shortchanged or further hurt.

I know that this is a difficult thing to go through. It makes it difficult if you, or anyone, is sensitive. Sometimes it is just not a good fit. I was with a therapist for seven years, and although some of it was positive, some of it damaged me more.
I really feel for you, Whatever choice you make, you will be okay. If you stay, you can always leave later or whenever. If you decide to quit, that will be okay, too. Maybe there will be a DBT class in the near future. I know this feels like two difficult choices, but if you chose one choice, you aren't stuck in that choice.