[SlumberKitty]

Hi All, so this has been bothering me since Monday night when I saw Pastor T. As background I had SH-ed on Sunday and twice on Monday before seeing Pastor T. I have a rather difficult (for me) GP appointment today which is causing me a lot of distress. Pastor T and I were talking about it and he told me that I *couldn't* SH Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday. I tried to negotiate with him. Such as, how about not on Tuesday, but okay on Wednesday? But he said no. He wasn't going to negotiate. He did tell me to call him on my lunch break on Wednesday and we would do a visualization and then to call him after the Dr appointment to debrief. So it's not like he just hung me out to dry completely, but this plan isn't ideal for me either.

We didn't come to this plan together. Pastor T said no SH and there wasn't any wiggle room for me. I'm kind of a rule-follower for the most part so I don't feel like I can just do whatever I want since he told me that I can't. I thought T's were supposed to collaboratively come up with goals that you are supposed to try to achieve. I can understand that SH is bad for me and not healthy and stuff like that, but what if it were a different sort of pattern, like over-eating, or shopping, or over-exercising? Would that have made a difference?
I'm kind of mad at Pastor T because I feel like my biggest, best coping mechanism has been taken away when I need it. So I feel....punished? And it is driving up the anxiety. When you are told you can't do something, it makes it harder to not do that something. Maybe that is resistance. Maybe that is opposition. Maybe that is human nature. I can't see myself SH-ing and then keeping it a secret from him. But if I SH it feels like there is too much riding on it, since he explicitly told me not to.

I did use my social supports and texted and called a few friends to have them give me support today. One even offered to go to the Dr appointment with me, but that would have just been weird so I declined. So I am trying to use other coping skills.

I don't know if this is somewhat a battle of the wills. I don't know if this is a battle against authority. I don't know if this is just me being frustrated that one thing I planned on getting me through the appointment today is forbidden. I know all of this stuff should ideally be talked through with Pastor T. But it is going to be a few weeks before my next appointment with him as he is having knee surgery on Monday. And it's going to be too long to talk to him about it on the phone today. Plus I'm not good at bringing up stuff that is bothering me to the person that brought up the stuff that is bothering me. Confrontation. Not my strong suit.

I know that SH is a sticky issue. That technically he could make me go to the hospital or something if he feels I am at risk to myself. I don't know if he would do that, but I know it's an option he has. I know he is coming from a good place. That he is trying to keep me safe. That he is trying to grow me. And heal me. I do understand that and I do appreciate that. But it is super hard to have the one coping mechanism that always works taken away. Does a therapist have the right to tell you that you can't do something? I mean, they do have some authority but is this a good time to exercise it? I'm not sure I trust myself to think clearly about all of this so I am presenting it to the group. I'm not sure I have the right to be angry about it, although I've been told feelings are feelings and they are neither good or bad, it just depends what you do with them. I'm not sure he had the right to tell me I couldn't do something. Honestly, it probably would have gone a lot better if he could have gotten me to come around to the idea and agree to it. Like I'd really like to put this goal in place for you, and I'd really like to get you on board, what would that take? But the authoritarian rule is bugging me.

Either way I'm stuck. I can't SH until Friday because he didn't say anything about after Thursday. I'm just not happy about it. I wasn't in the decision making process but I am bound by the decision. This sucks. Thanks to everyone who reads this. Kit

[LostOnTheTrail]

I'm sorry, Kit. That sounds unfair to me. Pastor T thinks he's given you an alternative, but if it's not an alternative that works for you, I would question whether it is really an alternative. P was big on containment: 'When you think about "this issue", tell yourself I have an appointment with that on Tuesday.' Never worked for me, because if I could put it away and not think about it again, I would not be in therapy. Selfishly, I would hope that you would be able to come to a solution that wouldn't involve hurting yourself, but...that's just me. HUGS

[Mully]

My T has never told me that I can/can’t do something. I think that sets up a weird power dynamic.

I also SH, and she will tell me that she doesn’t like that I feel like I need to do it, and that she hopes I don’t do it. We’ve talked about strategies and other distractions/coping methods. But she’s acknowledged that sometimes my new coping skills won’t feel like enough, and I might feel like I have to, and that is okay.

I think it’s great if *you* decide and make a promise, because it gives you your power. I have made my own safety agreements before, where I’ve said to my T that I am making a promise I won’t do any significant harm before I speak to her next in xxx number of days, but that’s my choice, not hers. I don’t see how it’s helpful for someone to tell you what you can and cannot do, because in my opinion, it can make you feel worse.

I’m sorry you are having a tough time.

[KLL85]

I’m so sorry you have been made to feel like this and I think you have every right to feel a little resentful.
My T has said to me that he would prefer that I didn’t SH as it isn’t a healthy coping mechanism but he also explained that he would never tell me not to do it as he understands that it is sometimes the only way I can get through a day and he doesn’t want to add any further feelings of shame towards myself if he was to say ‘no you cannot do that.’ He also said that if he told me not do it and I did then he would have added a whole load of guilt in as well and potentially make the situation even more triggering.
Instead we work together on what I can do to try and slowly reduce the amount of SH rather than go cold turkey, and if there are a few slip ups along the way then that’s ok.
To me something as personal as SH should be worked on collaboratively not dictated as that comes across like the other person is on a bit of a power trip.
Thinking of you.

[comrademoomoo]

Is he a pastor or is he a therapist? He doesn't sound like much of a therapist so I hope he is a better pastor. These are two very different roles and maybe having them fused is not helpful for you.

[Sometimes psychotic]

My T has never done that....we always talk about what I’d like to do and how to implement it.

[SlumberKitty]

Originally Posted by comrademoomoo

Is he a pastor or is he a therapist? He doesn't sound like much of a therapist so I hope he is a better pastor. These are two very different roles and maybe having them fused is not helpful for you.

Well, he is both. He is a pastor and he also has a PhD in Marriage and Family Therapy. He has a license to practice therapy. I call him Pastor T to distinguish him from my regular T.

[comrademoomoo]

Originally Posted by SlumberKitty

Well, he is both. He is a pastor and he also has a PhD in Marriage and Family Therapy. He has a license to practice therapy. I call him Pastor T to distinguish him from my regular T.

Jack of all trades, master of none. I would give him the big old swerve. He doesn't seem to have the most basic of understanding about the conditions and purpose of self-harm. What is the purpose of working with him as opposed to your regular therapist?

[ElectricManatee]

Pastor T reminds me of a vet we used to see. My dog broke into a big itchy rash on his belly. We took the dog to the vet, and the vet gave us ointments and antibiotics and medicated shampoo. We diligently applied all the things exactly as prescribed. Didn't get better. Took the dog back to the vet, repeated this whole process three times. Eventually, the vet referred us to a dermatologist who said, "Hey, actually, your dog has a food allergy that's causing this." We changed our dog's diet to avoid the allergen, and he hasn't had a skin problem since.

I feel like self-harm is similar. You can focus on the symptom itself, but you are likely to expend a lot of energy without really getting anywhere. If you find somebody who can help you get to the root of the problem (which is likely trauma and not the self-harm itself), then you can heal a bunch of things at once and the urge to self-harm will go away more or less on its own.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by SlumberKitty

Hi All, so this has been bothering me since Monday night when I saw Pastor T. As background I had SH-ed on Sunday and twice on Monday before seeing Pastor T. I have a rather difficult (for me) GP appointment today which is causing me a lot of distress. Pastor T and I were talking about it and he told me that I *couldn't* SH Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday. I tried to negotiate with him. Such as, how about not on Tuesday, but okay on Wednesday? But he said no. He wasn't going to negotiate. He did tell me to call him on my lunch break on Wednesday and we would do a visualization and then to call him after the Dr appointment to debrief. So it's not like he just hung me out to dry completely, but this plan isn't ideal for me either.

We didn't come to this plan together. Pastor T said no SH and there wasn't any wiggle room for me. I'm kind of a rule-follower for the most part so I don't feel like I can just do whatever I want since he told me that I can't. I thought T's were supposed to collaboratively come up with goals that you are supposed to try to achieve. I can understand that SH is bad for me and not healthy and stuff like that, but what if it were a different sort of pattern, like over-eating, or shopping, or over-exercising? Would that have made a difference?
I'm kind of mad at Pastor T because I feel like my biggest, best coping mechanism has been taken away when I need it. So I feel....punished? And it is driving up the anxiety. When you are told you can't do something, it makes it harder to not do that something. Maybe that is resistance. Maybe that is opposition. Maybe that is human nature. I can't see myself SH-ing and then keeping it a secret from him. But if I SH it feels like there is too much riding on it, since he explicitly told me not to.

I did use my social supports and texted and called a few friends to have them give me support today. One even offered to go to the Dr appointment with me, but that would have just been weird so I declined. So I am trying to use other coping skills.

I don't know if this is somewhat a battle of the wills. I don't know if this is a battle against authority. I don't know if this is just me being frustrated that one thing I planned on getting me through the appointment today is forbidden. I know all of this stuff should ideally be talked through with Pastor T. But it is going to be a few weeks before my next appointment with him as he is having knee surgery on Monday. And it's going to be too long to talk to him about it on the phone today. Plus I'm not good at bringing up stuff that is bothering me to the person that brought up the stuff that is bothering me. Confrontation. Not my strong suit.

I know that SH is a sticky issue. That technically he could make me go to the hospital or something if he feels I am at risk to myself. I don't know if he would do that, but I know it's an option he has. I know he is coming from a good place. That he is trying to keep me safe. That he is trying to grow me. And heal me. I do understand that and I do appreciate that. But it is super hard to have the one coping mechanism that always works taken away. Does a therapist have the right to tell you that you can't do something? I mean, they do have some authority but is this a good time to exercise it? I'm not sure I trust myself to think clearly about all of this so I am presenting it to the group. I'm not sure I have the right to be angry about it, although I've been told feelings are feelings and they are neither good or bad, it just depends what you do with them. I'm not sure he had the right to tell me I couldn't do something. Honestly, it probably would have gone a lot better if he could have gotten me to come around to the idea and agree to it. Like I'd really like to put this goal in place for you, and I'd really like to get you on board, what would that take? But the authoritarian rule is bugging me.

Either way I'm stuck. I can't SH until Friday because he didn't say anything about after Thursday. I'm just not happy about it. I wasn't in the decision making process but I am bound by the decision. This sucks. Thanks to everyone who reads this. Kit

admitting I didn't read the whole post here …

my first response is wait a minute how does he plan on enforcing you cant do any self harm.. is he going to come to your house and restrain you, take away every object in your home for, for every object is a home there is a way to use that item in negative ways....

of course not right... line in the sand no one but you can tell you that you can not self harm...

no Im not advocating for doing it just stating a simple fact. unless this pastor plans to be with you every second of the day and night those days he can not legally nor ethically say to you, you can not self harm on those days.

he can on the other hand make a treatment plan with you where ……………..you ……………..make an agreement that you will not do so on those days.

only you can control you and what you do.

usually when treatment providers make a no self harm contract it spells out what both sides agree to. and what the consequenses for not following through with that agreement are going to be...

think of it like buying a car.

you go to a car dealer ship, pick out a car, sign a contract and then you are choosing to either follow that contract or risk the consequenses (car being repo'ed by the dealership for breaching the contract.

you and your pastor have made a no self harm contract.

now you get to choose whether you are going to follow through with that no self harm contract or accept the consequences.

with my treatment providers I have a no self harm contract and the consequenses for my choosing to not follow through with it is being hospitalized for stabilization, medication adjustments and so forth.

my suggestion talk with your pastor to clarify what your no self harm contract entails and what the not following through with the contracted days will have for consequenses.

then you can decide for yourself whether you want to make changes to your no self harm contract or leave it as is and either don't self harm per the contract or accept the consequenses for acting on the self harm.

[Salmon77]

Does a therapist have the right to tell you that you can't do something? I mean, they do have some authority but is this a good time to exercise it?

No, a therapist does not have the right to tell you what to do or what not to do. A therapist has exactly as much authority over you as you choose to give them. That might be none.

[Lonelyinmyheart]

I can't agree with your pastor T's actions Kit. I've had therapy with four main ts and none of them ever said I couldn't do something. To give an order like that is authoritarian and gives the T the power, which is wrong as good therapy is about empowering the client. I can't see how your T saying that could be helpful in any way, it's not showing nay empathy towards you for getting the urges to SH or being productive in dealing with them. I'm really sorry you've been left feeling like this in such a horrid situation.

[ArtleyWilkins]

I'm not going to get into whether he is right or wrong about this (you've gotten lots of feedback on the end), but instead, challenge you to challenge your own thinking about SH a bit since you also mentioned you realize you may not be thinking clearly about all of this.

You refer to SH as
"my biggest, best coping mechanism"
"that one thing I planned on"
"the one coping mechanism that always works"

Yet,
Your T offered to help you with some visualization techniques.
He offered to talk to you and debrief.
You did use your social supports.
You texted friends.
You called friends.
They provided support.
One friend offered to go with you.

You clearly have a "toolbox" of coping strategies that are much healthier and much less dangerous that SH; you've been using them. But you seem determined the elevate SH to the "biggest" "best" "one". Maybe it's just the "easiest" one? It's your default. You know you have other, healthier, and probably quite effective coping strategies, but because your default is more automatic for you, it feels like the "best" when perhaps it's just "the easiest".

Right or wrong, your T seems to know you have the ability to utilize healthy coping strategies if you put your mind to it. But I think you are onto the whole "I'm going to buck the authority figure" defiance thing that you seem to have going on here.

Maybe rather than choosing to focus on what your T may have done wrong, reframe this as a time to be as determined and confident as he is that you can get through this without resorting to SH because, as you and he both know, you do have healthier coping skills at your disposal if you choose to use them.

I don't think getting hung up right now on his rightness or wrongness serves you in any way except to perhaps justify to yourself a reason to SH ("He screwed up, so I'm justified in SH.") You can talk to him about that later, but don't use it as a rationale for resorting to what really is your least safe, least effective, least healthy coping mechanism.

[atisketatasket]

Kit—I think a good therapist doesn’t say “can’t.” A therapist hung up on being an authority figure—as a pastor might see himself—does.

I think a good therapist says, “can not.” As in you *can* not self harm and I can help you with that.

This guy makes you feel worse in so many ways. With sh, he’s treating the symptom, not the cause. If you really want to try CBT or whatever his specialty is, I’d find another therapist.

[stopdog]

I would not allow a therapist to tell me what I could or could not do. I would run away as fast as I could from one who tried. They are not my parents nor are they gods or really anyone I view as an authority in any way. They absolutely do not get to dictate to me anything. I would leave and never go back to a therapist who tried such a thing.
The other idea is that regardless of what a therapist says, a client is not bound to obey or follow or agree.

I think this pastor guy is an authoritarian goofus and I would not go near him with a ten foot pole. If you want to stop self harm -find a therapist you can see regularly who does not seen themselves as on a mission from god or any other position of authority to you.

[maybeblue]

I agree with you. I don't think a therapist should tell you that you "can't" do something. People have a right to self-determination. If whatever you do is truly life-threatening they can sometimes force you to go inpatient, but most self-harm is self-harm...not a suicide attempt and not likely to kill you.

Regardless of what he says, it is still ultimately your choice if you "obey" him or not. I'm with you, if a therapist told me not to do something, that would make me want to do it all the more.

[unaluna]

This may be my catholic background talking, but to me, there is no difference between what a priest says and what Jesus says. And frankly, the biggest problem i have with what religions say is political. I mean like their whole message is political and they forgot Jesus.

Anyway yeah i think you are barking up the wrong tree, focussing attn on the pastor and his methods. Religion is either a cause of your issues or a diversion from addressing them. Yeah cuz i know everything of course.

But i do like what @@ said about "can not" and addressing the symptom, not the problem.

[SlumberKitty]

Thank you everyone, for helping me to sort through this. I still feel perturbed at being told what not to do, and I can't help that I feel that way. Feelings are what feelings are. I can only control what I do with them. So I think that I chose a healthy outlet to talk about it and through it here on PC. It is healthy to talk things through so that is what I wanted to achieve in my post.

You all brought up some good points. And gave me some good stuff to think about. At least my being angry at my Pastor T is helping me not be so anxious about the appointment. I can only have so many emotions at one time, so in a way, I guess this is good distraction.

To be clear, I'm not going to SH to provoke my Pastor T or because what I think he did was wrong. He told me not to SH and I'm pretty much not going to SH unless I just absolutely can't help it, and if that is the case, I'll probably end up at the ER anyway.

I do think not having the option to SH right now is making my situation worse because having this appointment is like a kind of trauma for me, and not being able to SH is like making it harder for me to get through the trauma. I am ambivalent about SH. I want to give it up, and I want to hang onto it. It obviously still serves a purpose in my life. I have been over the past year or so, working on letting people into my life so that they can support me and hopefully over time, the connection that I am building with these people will be strong enough to help me step away from SH. I don't think I'm there yet.

I did follow through and I called Pastor T on my lunch break so he could do a visualization with me. I can't say that it was exactly helpful but there is something about someone taking time out of their schedule to talk to me for three or four minutes that means *something* to me. I must not be a worthless piece of crap if someone is going to take 3 or 4 minutes out of their day to talk to me on the phone about my stupid anxiety about a normal procedure at a Dr.'s office.

I am still feeling my way with Pastor T. I haven't seen him that many times. I do think he challenges me in different ways than regular T or that my T's have in the past. And yes, sometimes these challenges are scary to me, sometimes they upset me, sometimes they make me mad, sometimes they make me really in a bad space that I have to fight to get out of. Ultimately I have no way of knowing if his way of working will be helpful to me, harmful to me, or neutral to me. I do think I owe myself the shot that it might be the kind of help that I need. I've been SH-ing for a long time. Since I was nine years old. I'd like to not be doing it into my 40's and 50's. Right now, I want to SH. But there is part of me that doesn't want to SH. Those two parts are at war. I do try to use my other coping mechanisms, but they truly aren't as good as SH. But maybe one day, they will be good enough.

Although I am resenting being told by Pastor T that I cannot use this coping mechanism, it is forcing me to make a choice. SH or don't SH. Submit or don't submit. I have another choice. Don't get the procedure done at the Dr.'s. Which might end up happening if I can't pull it together at the doctor's. And if I can't do it, I'm going to be hating myself, and that feeds right into the SH feelings. Don't give in, Kit!

I probably would have ultimately agreed to three days no SH if it would have been presented to me as a goal. Like if he would have said, "Can I get you to commit to 3 days no SH, and I'll do x and y to help you, and you do x, y, an z instead?" I probably would have agreed to that. I do take issue that it was a command. It's just mucking up everything in my brain and making me all more upset than I needed to be. I know that sounds whiny. I feel a little whiny. I hate being mad and I feel mad and I feel upset and I'm having to feel these feelings and it's hard for me. I know I can do 3 days. I just did 75 days, so it's not the length of time that is bothering me. The timing isn't great for me. I know if I go through with the procedure I'm going to be terribly upset. If I can even get through the procedure, which is a big if.

I just have to accept right now that I can't SH. It's for my own good. And whatever happens at the Dr.'s happens. Either I can get the procedure done. Or I can't. Either I will hate myself because I can't do it, or be traumatized because I had it done. I don't think there is any other way through it.

This is long and I think I rambled. So thank you to anyone who reads it. I'm still obviously trying to sort out my thoughts and feelings. I'm trying to come to grips with my current reality. HUGS Kit

[Taylor27]

Hugs I don't think the pastor t has any right to tell you not to sh. He can offer you healthy coping skills. I too have a hard time going to the doctor it's very traumatizing for me to go too. I'm glad writing here helped you. Please don't let the pastor t dictate over what you can or cannot do. He should support you either way and i think what he is doing is wrong. Hugs

[SlumberKitty]

Thanks everyone. As it happens, it worked out. Last time I was at the Dr they asked me to get a Pap smear but it was during my cycle. So they were like okay, we will do it next time. So I've been all stressed out about it since then. I went to my appointment and after they took my vitals they took me to a room to get changed for the Pap smear. So I did. I waited for 20 minutes. Then the nurse came in and was like wait. Have you ever been sexually active? And I was like no. And so the nurse was like you don't need the test. Unless you want to. I was like, no thanks. So I got dressed and went to see the Dr. She asked me again if I have ever been sexually active and I was like no. And she's like then you don't need the test. You aren't at risk for cervical cancer then. And it's really hard to do the test if you've never been sexually active. I was like great. Then stop sending me emails and texts that I need this test. So we went over my labs and my BP was good and my labs were good. She's lowering my dose of cholesterol meds because it's doing so much better. Then she is giving me a cream for acne. And I asked her to check my arm for infection where I had cut Sunday and Monday. And she said it's a little pink but not bad. Just use antibiotic cream. She was like oh those are fresh cuts. I was like yeah. She's like when do you see your psych doctor? I said next week. She said to be sure I told him and maybe he needs to adjust my medications. So she gave me a lab order and an appointment for 3 months. So I don't even need to SH because I didn't even have to do the test. Whew.