I still feel therapist need to do this.

https://psychcentralforums.com/psych...therapist.html

This threat was closed but looking back I might not be in this tortured position if it was followed.

http://https://psychcentralforums.co...therapist.html

I'm sorry you are in pain and I say the following as someone who also felt much pain owing to therapy. but that list is unrealistic and completely one-sided. Your set of criteria place the onus of responsibility solely on the Ts' shoulders. This robs the clients of their sense of agency and responsibility. What is the client's part in all of that??

A client isn't a helpless child who goes blind into therapy. A modicum of research and responsibility falls on the Client's shoulders.

Seriously, how can anyone stop anyone else fantasising or getting attached? This is frankly ridiculous. This is the nature of transference, attachment or even projection - the other person doesn't even have to do or say anything to 'lead us on' but we do so anyway. How is placing the blame on someone else i.e. the T helpful?! It is merely denial of responsibility.

I agree with Rive on this to a point. It's a two way relationship due to the nature of how therapy works. The client has a choice whether to leave at any point and any good therapy should focus on the client's autonomy and agency. Painful feelings and unmet meets are going to emerge as ideally this is how they can be understood and worked through. Unfortunately sometimes a T just doesn't have the self-awareness, training or emotional capacity to deal with intense transference and things can go horribly wrong, which IS the fault of the T. It can FEEL exactly like you did as a child - in a state of acute desperation and longing, that you will die without this T. As a child, you would die without an adult to take care of you. But that isn't true now that you're an adult who has choices and autonomy. Any good T will always encourage this foremost before working through deep transference material and it sounds like yours failed you in that sense. BUT you can get through this pain and survive, it's agonising but the realisation that you have other options available to you now, you're not going to die if you can't see this guy, is what sets you free.

I know it is not all their fault but there is plenty of fault on their part. Adult? yeah I might be in an Adult body but trauma trapped my mind as a child. I am trying to be an adult about this and using all avenues to work this out.

I know it's incredibly painful What you know and how you feel inside are completely misaligned. I don't mean to minimalise any of this at all.

Just hang onto the fact you can get through this even though your emotions are telling you a different story. I don't know if this means working with your ex T, seeing a T who is liaising with your ex T, or moving on and seeing someone else altogether, but whatever you do, you have the choice. I think it's good that you're also working on doing some weekend activities and maybe try and do more stuff like that. Tell the child in you that you'll both be okay, you'll come through the other side of this.

I agree Lonelyinmyheart. I was going by the general 'protocol' list.

However, speaking about this particular T, they clearly don't want to (can't?) do the work with the OP. And that is on the T. It is not so much that the T isn't skilled or competent to work on attachment or transference etc. but the way this T goes about it is, imo, completely wrong.

As hard and painful as it is, we can't make people stay and/or work with us. This T doesn't seem equipped (skill set, competence, professionalism) to help.

Yeah if a T is refusing to work with Moxie (or anyone) there's nothing that can be done sadly apart from to work with the remaining options. I know it's far from easy on the emotional level.

Unfortunately there are many ill-equipped T's out there, for many different reasons.

To me, your list brings up many valid points. The "making the client feel special" is a huge one, for me.

With the therapist I saw years ago, the one I had the immensely, painfully, miserably strong transference with- he made it clear that I was his "special" client. And maybe that's how he really felt. But to me, it felt one-sided...he viewed me as very special, but I was never permitted to discuss my transference. Every time I edged near it he would say something such as, "If you're uncomfortable with things as they are, I can refer you to someone else."

I didn't even believe he was serious; I believe he very much wanted me as his client. But he might as well have said, "I don't want to go into your transference." Instead, he manipulated me by using fear of abandonment. Then he was suddenly gone and there I was, stuck with my unresolved transference.

My current therapist has made me feel very special, too. One of the first things she told me when we began therapy was, "If we were not in therapy I would choose you for a friend." That made me feel kind of weird. And other indications that I was special to her. So my transference (that extremely needy part of my child-self) deepened, but then she's gone so much that again, it feels like abandonment.

I can relate to Moxie's situation, I think. And I just didn't/don't have the agency or response-ability or whatever-it-is to manage/handle/whatever-it-is a two-way relationship is very well.

I could/can do it on the level of rules (what am I supposed to do here) and rules, but not on the level of what seems to be call an "authentic" personality. I think there is still the potential for that in me, but the way I think of it sometimes is that the "healthy ego" which might have formed got stomped into the ground when I was a kid. The last T had said at the beginning of the therapy that she ultimately bailed on, that I was "narcissistically wounded and fragmented". In my view she may have helped with the fragmentation, but not the wounding.

I'm not so "defended" as I was 10 years ago, maybe, but whatever might have developed, if I had been in a healthy social environment growing up, still feels raw, like I'm totally burned and without skin. Have I mentioned intolerable feelings before?

I'm doing a little better than 10 years ago, maybe, but not at the level of a realistically functional adult.

Maybe there are some psychoanalytically inclined therapists who can deal with this kind of thing if people come to them in the beginning, before being re-traumatized by therapists who are NOT able to deal with it. But, how can we, the clients, know how to do that? How is it our responsibility on our side of the a two-way street? The therapists are the LICENSED PROFESSIONALS. And we can't know what we have numbed out, until it's not numb any more. But when it's not numb, it's also too activated or distressed or whatever-word-you want-to-use to function in any kind of "healthy" two-person "relationship". I just haven't had the experience of such a thing, I don't have the soothing of anybody giving a damn. I have the POTENTIAL for loving and caring about people and have done that, I think, within the context of a role or rules. But "authentically" -- what the heck is that? When I am "authentic" then other people, most especially therapists, can't tolerate it. Evidence, here -- there were others but the most recent example was the trauma-specialist T who terminated me 5 years ago, after 6 years of "therapy", because she didn't "have the emotional resources" to continue.

If some of you can't relate to this kind of situation, then you can't relate. You can't imagine it because your world of two-way relationships isn't like the world I live in.

And no matter how much it's a real world reality currently that we can't make these T's be able to help us, it's also true for me that I don't have the capacity to deal with that horrendous disappointment, and the way I used to deal with that situation in my family of origin was to dissociate. And that option is not a good one any more. It's a dead end, one-way street. Survival. But at this point in my life, for what.

I continue to believe that the best way to help people like me, if there are any, is in a support group of people with similar situations. DBT did NOT help, because my situation is different even if some people might say that I present like someone with BPD when that "wounded narcissism" is exposed. It was very rarely around when I was a young adult, mostly numbed out and covered over by a "good girl" who outwardly followed the rules.

The mental heath profession has failed. It has hurt and misled me. There is no two-way relationship on that -- I did do my best, in terms of "work" in therapy, researching potential therapists, research ABOUT therapy, etc.

Moxie's suggestion is one approach. It's an attempt, from her side of the street. I appreciate it.

I hope the ex-T you're going back to see can help, Moxie.

I don't know why people buy into the therapist's position that when therapy goes well it is because the therapist is good and when it goes bad it is because the client is to blame in any number of ridiculous ways. Those people completely ignore all tenets of informed consent and yet want to use a medical model. Lack of informed consent is a giant failing of their industry.

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Originally Posted by stopdog I don't know why people buy into the therapist's position that when therapy goes well it is because the therapist is good and when it goes bad it is because the client is to blame in any number of ridiculous ways. Those people completely ignore all tenets of informed consent and yet want to use a medical model. Lack of informed consent is a giant failing of their industry.

Hi stopdog, Do you believe that everyone should avoid being in psychotherapy? If so, do you have any ideas or beliefs about how people can resolve mental suffering?

Yoga, qi gong, exercise, meditation, acceptance etc

I think that a more general version of that overall protocol could lessen the potential harm therapy is causing. I strongly agree that therapists should warn about potential harmful effects and significant chance of failure altogether (with AIT being just one of those) - just like possible side effects have to be listed for any medication. Somehow, with medication/medical procedures in general, it's more of a standard to warn patients about risks and side effects, and more trivial for people that there tend to be some. Whereas with therapy
... it's not so trivial, so I reckon there's even more need for professionals to point out the possible 'side effects', yet they do it less.

The one exception of Ts trying to actively prevent idealisation - I agree with Rive. there, it just doesn't seem possible, and as far as I can see would more likely to just result in T acting like a robot.

I don't know how most people work, but my transferences (the strong ones anyway, that still bug me months afterward) result from a very strong need/drive to have/relive a certain type of relationship. Meaning that my perception might be at least somewhat screwed to begin with, favouring stuff that can be interpreted to fit those moulds.

So, I don't think therapists should be held responsible for bringing about any transference (apart from actually following the ethical guidelines already in place, which isn't always the case), but I strongly agree that once it's there; and it's painful for the client and/or disruptive for the therapy, they should bloody well work on trying to keep it manageable. Like, cut back on behaviour that feeds it, pay attention to own counter-transference, use supervision, and yes, try not to get defensive, but if they do then at least admit that they were, and not double down on it. And yes, maybe sometimes none of that will help, and that's where the client's responsibility comes in, but some damage might indeed be unavoidable even if both parties handling the situation reasonably well.

This is technically true, but kind of similar to saying "why don't you just leave" to someone in an abusive situation. I mean, you go into details later, so I get that's not what you mean, but ... still felt the need to point this out. So long as the client is in the throes of an intense transference, that autonomy and agency is more of a distant goal than something that can be reasonably expected of them, especially if they have to summon it up despite the therapist's 'help'.

Basically, therapists should ideally notice (or at least listen to clients pointing out) when damage is being done, and do appropriate damage control.

No I didn't mean that. I don't always express myself very well. I'm sorry for any offence. I wasn't saying that people should just leave a traumatic therapy - or any other - relationship. I know it's not that simple. I know firsthand how painful transference can be and how it feels pretty much impossible to see beyond the agony of the attachment. It's just that it was helpful to me to keep reminding myself that I had a choice even when it felt like I didn't. It clearly doesn't work for everyone though due to the damaging therapy situations that people have been in, on top of whatever issues were already there. I know therapy pulls you into a dynamic where seeing any kind of choice can be impossible, especially when the therapist causes emotional harm through not dealing with the client's transference well. I'm sorry for the trauma people have been left with as a result of this and don't intend to minimalise it.

Yup.....ALL of this resonates with me as you just could be explaining me.

I am curious so I sent off this list to Betterhelp T to see what his response, if any, will be. I had a session with him today and it sure does help to really talk through all my obsessive thoughts and how it all came about. I am not ungrateful for x-T's help and attention as he did try damn hard to help me but it is clear he was young and did not realize this would happen. Even so he could have faced his mistakes and talked about it with me instead of running from it.

Betterhelp T feels if I can find a connection with someone in real life this will all calm down. Maybe and maybe not. Maybe I will just obsessively attach to that person and drive them away as well. The core problem within me is not "fixed" or healed and I am not even sure how it does resolve.

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Originally Posted by MoxieDoxie I am curious so I sent off this list to Betterhelp T to see what his response, if any, will be. I had a session with him today and it sure does help to really talk through all my obsessive thoughts and how it all came about. I am not ungrateful for x-T's help and attention as he did try damn hard to help me but it is clear he was young and did not realize this would happen. Even so he could have faced his mistakes and talked about it with me instead of running from it. Betterhelp T feels if I can find a connection with someone in real life this will all calm down. Maybe and maybe not. Maybe I will just obsessively attach to that person and drive them away as well. The core problem within me is not "fixed" or healed and I am not even sure how it does resolve.

Uh...haha...I do not agree with BetterHelp T. No, with an unresolved transference - yeah, you're correct - you will likely transfer the unresolved feelings directly to another person.

I told you about my experience with my long-time therapist not guiding me through transference, then (with zero warning) he left his job and I never saw him again.

I continued to twist myself crazy over the unresolved transference and the result was that I met a man a year later who reminded me in many ways of my T. This man had been a psychiatrist, but had given up his practice and gone on to teach at a university. I happened to meet him at an art reception and immediately fell for him. Like, crazy-hard. All those transference issues I had not worked through dumped right onto him and we had an affair that lasted for 3 years (we were both married).

One day I woke up as from a completely freaky dream and accepted that what I was doing was making a mess of my life. The man I was having the affair with wanted me to move with him somewhere and I had a husband and children. So I ended it right there. But obviously, the transference just bounced from one man to the next.

That core problem does need to be fixed. It was true for me and I can say with confidence that it's true for anyone who is experiencing a strong transference.

I think that transference lessens when we have other relationships or things that consume our time and attention so BetterHelp is right in that regard. But, we will repeat the behavior until we find a way out.

Some therapists cannot deal with transference and others will not. I wonder if some of it has to do with how much time insurance companies are willing to pay and for how long. Ts may want to spend time dealing on things that are getting in the way of us having fulfilling, productive lives even though painful transference can stop us in our tracks.

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Originally Posted by iGottaBme I think that transference lessens when we have other relationships or things that consume our time and attention so BetterHelp is right in that regard. But, we will repeat the behavior until we find a way out. Some therapists cannot deal with transference and others will not. I wonder if some of it has to do with how much time insurance companies are willing to pay and for how long. Ts may want to spend time dealing on things that are getting in the way of us having fulfilling, productive lives even though painful transference can stop us in our tracks.

A point that hasn't been discussed yet (on this subject). Money. Insurance.


I'm remembering, right now, how many times my therapist has assured me that my insurance doesn't seem to have a time limit on how many therapy sessions I am permitted to have. Furthermore, the clinic she works for has no time limit, either.

If I lost my insurance today, I'd never see the woman again.

Reality: Money talks / Bullsh*t walks.

I wonder how many T's think, "Am I making enough money on this client to justify the amount of time and energy I'm putting out?"

Are there therapists who charge a normal neurotic less than they charge a challenging client with BPD? Hmmm...

It depends on the T regarding insurance/payment. My T is private practice and does not take insurance, though I get 60% of his fees reimbursed by my plan. When my plan changed the amount they were willing to reimburse, he agreed to reduce what I paid him by $25, so I was still paying the same net amount from my pocket per session. At first I assured him I'd only continue seeing him twice a week for a couple months at the reduced fee, then would switch back to once a week at full fee. He said to take all the time I need (over a year later...). I said I felt bad about paying him less, but he said at one point he had a client who was in a really bad place mentally and financially, that he only charged him $5 a session for a while (and T wasn't getting reimbursed by insurance, so he was literally getting paid $5).


He said about half of his clients pay less than his full fee. And I get the sense this is how many T's structure their practice (the sliding scale). So, it wouldn't necessarily be the case. I'm not sure how it works with clinics, but it's possible she'd be able to work something out.


And once I said to my ex-marriage counselor that he only cares about me because I pay him. He said I pay him to do his job, not to care. That he chooses to care. So I don't really think it's just about the money for T's. They could likely make considerably more money doing a job that's much less stressful...