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Default Nov 02, 2020 at 06:24 AM
  #21
In this thread, you are very oriented toward taking care of your therapist, and empathizing with her, mentalizing.

This is backwards.

She might be on to something about the dynamic, but she is handling it unprofessionally herself.

There is zero pressure on you to be "professional", you are the patient here.

Part of her job is to offer a safe space consistently, and you seem to now feel the relationship is threatened . You shouldn't be in the position of needing to set boundaries and telling your own T to work this out in supervision, but here you are.

It seem like a good amount of countertransference is affecting her. I hope she steps up next session and repairs.

I wonder if she has trouble accepting care in her real life, or if the whole backdrop of 2020's stresses is getting to her?

You seem like a rewarding client, open-minded, self aware , and insightful .

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Last edited by SalingerEsme; Nov 02, 2020 at 06:28 AM.. Reason: spelling blooper
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Default Nov 05, 2020 at 05:41 AM
  #22
Thank you for the reply. I've got some update on this, as we've just had a session with T again.

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Originally Posted by SalingerEsme View Post
In this thread, you are very oriented toward taking care of your therapist, and empathizing with her, mentalizing.

This is backwards.
At this point I'm wondering if I'm unfit to psychotherapy as a whole, as I really do care about the other person, as a person. I see that T has some difficulties. Where this troubles me is that the problem is T and I became too close personally. I could really handle this closeness, but T seen this as practically indistinguishable from a friendship - hence unprofessional.

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Originally Posted by SalingerEsme View Post
She might be on to something about the dynamic, but she is handling it unprofessionally herself.

There is zero pressure on you to be "professional", you are the patient here.
I'm might be just splitting hairs here, but I certainly don't feel like a patient as I certainly have no clinical pathology. I'm there for self-knowledge, better adjustment, more efficient functioning.

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Originally Posted by SalingerEsme View Post
Part of her job is to offer a safe space consistently, and you seem to now feel the relationship is threatened . You shouldn't be in the position of needing to set boundaries and telling your own T to work this out in supervision, but here you are.
I felt safe throughout. I'm apprehensive about the future. It was T who thought the boundaries were too loose, so T asserted this, but did so in an overly vulnerable way. I guess the reason was that I did not find the boundaries being too loose in the first place, if anything, just ideal for myself, and being in an excellent empathic connection, T could sense this, and me first in the relationship, only to realize later, T made a mistake by neglecting T's own professional needs of keeping a certain distance, neutrality and anonimity.

What T did find uncomfortable and was vocal about is having our sessions reach over 30 minutes of assigned time and attributed it to T's compensation for making too much self-disclosure, therefore using my time on T's interest. (these boundary crossings in time did not mess up T's nor my daily schedule though)

However, I've found T's self-disclosures immensely helpful, so we've concluded that this was an insecurity on T's part. We are now keeping time.

I guess another boundary looseness that makes T uneasy is my friendly, direct conduct. I am not willing to give up on this, as I have to be congruent in the relationship in order to work on myself. T reciprocated this. We could really connect as two persons. This might be fine with person-centered therapists (my orientation) but unprofessional by T's standards.

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Originally Posted by SalingerEsme View Post
It seem like a good amount of countertransference is affecting her. I hope she steps up next session and repairs.

I wonder if she has trouble accepting care in her real life, or if the whole backdrop of 2020's stresses is getting to her?
T disclosed this has only happened with me from all of T's clients.

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Originally Posted by SalingerEsme View Post
You seem like a rewarding client, open-minded, self aware , and insightful .
I wonder if I really am. It looks like my closeness and our personal fit is standing on the way of objectivity - T finds being opposite to being subjectivity. This dichotomy causes great anxiety in T.

Where my anxiety comes from at the moment, if we can't carry on counseling, will I lose the personal and the psychologist-psychologist dimension of my relationship with T? T is extremely conscientious and considers to be conservative. We're colleagues after all, and actively do the same sports. Post-termination meetings are inevitable.

I mentioned to T, I'm ready to consider termination, as I've gained so much from our sessions. T agreed, but for now we're checking how we're working out. After our previous sitting I felt a bit like we're committing violence to our natural relationship, so I'm leaning more towards termination.

It would hurt me though letting T go completely out of my life, as T was an important, personal ally when talking, as psychologist-to-psychologist, about professional issues. I guess that might been a gray area T didn't had cleared up, as T acted like a real person, someone who T is not comfortable with in the framework of therapeutic work in retrospect. What is hard at the moment is that it's clear that T can't handle this smoothly. I would be happy to make this a collaborative effort, but that really takes its toll on T, and I'm naturally concerned about our personal relationship. To add insult to injury, T has disclosed a couple of months ago, that T always had very bad experience with each of T's supervisors.

When things are as complicated as this, I think termination is probably the best option, as T's therapeutic framework with such elements is practically unmanageable.

Last edited by HarperF; Nov 05, 2020 at 06:08 AM..
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Default Nov 05, 2020 at 09:41 PM
  #23
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It does sound like there is a friendship that is interfering with the process of therapy. Your T shouldn't be disclosing much personal info to you and she shouldn't be bursting into tears in *your* therapy.
What is going on there? Something has gotten muddled.
I agree. Something has got mixed up here


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Default Nov 18, 2020 at 10:02 AM
  #24
Rupture got resolved. T is emotionally over-involved on a couple of subjects that are current for me. We also have too many things in common to divert in a personal talk, we'll aim to eschew these topics. T got genuinely insecure about having T's issues showing up in a direct way in therapy. The rupture came from T's core issues were triggered by my current issues, and we've grown to have a closer, more personal relationship, where T's self-disclosures - while directed to be helpful for me - got T carried away, because it was helpful for T as well. During these times we were working more like two clients in a group therapy setting. We've talked these through. I feel this was a major breakthrough. I'm awesomely happy about the situation, and it actually helped me immensely to resolve my issue to see someone battling with it, almost the same way as me. We're in the ending phase now.

T is a very serious therapist, and our sittings were hardest to bear for T professionally as now. This was a place of immense growth for both of us. I'm going to miss our days in counseling, but I feel happy to think about our relationship having fulfilled its purposes.

Thinking about it retrospectively, I don't find it useful to conceptualize T's reaction as countertransference. It was real in that T was both an active participant in an ethical dilemma, was questioning T's own expertise, and T's problematic pathologies got triggered. T is now attending supervision. Both of us are happy with the current outcome, and the plans for the future.
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Default Nov 18, 2020 at 10:10 AM
  #25
I'm glad the issues seem to be resolved and that your T is in supervision for it now. However, "T's problematic pathologies got triggered" sounds exactly like countertransference to me...
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Default Nov 18, 2020 at 10:21 AM
  #26
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I'm glad the issues seem to be resolved and that your T is in supervision for it now. However, "T's problematic pathologies got triggered" sounds exactly like countertransference to me...
Our therapy wasn't dynamically-oriented. I did not remind T anyone from T's past, nor was our situation a repetition of any situations from T's past. What was at play here is T not trusting himself to accept T as competent helper if T did not fix an actual problem. I don't have the same problem, but our difficulties are stemming from the same base of having a vulnerable self-esteem.
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Default Nov 18, 2020 at 10:23 PM
  #27
Has there been a sexual attraction between the 2 of you?

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Default Nov 19, 2020 at 12:51 AM
  #28
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Has there been a sexual attraction between the 2 of you?
Not that I know of.
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Default Nov 25, 2020 at 12:31 PM
  #29
Whoa. That must have felt pretty bad. I’m so sorry.

Humour me here, but let‘s try to imagine a best-case T-speak intervention for that situation:

“Client, I am noticing that lately it seems to me that we’ve gotten into a pattern of more informal-type chat and further from a therapeutic style of interacting. Is that an observation that you share? What do you think about that? […] As much as I enjoy chatting with you, and recognize the value of having some lighter sessions, I’d like to be more conscious of the fact that this is your therapy time.”

To me, it seems reasonable that a good T could get a bit derailed from time to time. Crying to YOU that THEY aren’t being professional? I’m not sure if the relationship can come back from that. Or if you want it to. As excruciatingly sad as it would be to let go of someone you care for so much, this relationship may have run its course.
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Default Nov 25, 2020 at 01:39 PM
  #30
I don't know if you are in the U.S. But, here we have a lot of psychiatrists that do psychotherapy. I mean I have tried out many psychiatrists for therapy and medication. If you need further help, I wonder if you could seek therapy from a psychiatrist and not a fellow therapist.
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Default Nov 25, 2020 at 03:21 PM
  #31
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Whoa. That must have felt pretty bad. I’m so sorry.
It's ok. It didn't feel bad per se, but it felt pretty weird. I mean personally for me the tears meant that we're now pretty deep and T could trust me enough that I wouldn't break and T can get honest about things and show what's inside. I know T does the best not to intrude. If anything T tends overdoing is distance, coldness, isolation and a professional wall of disguise. At times it was bothersome actually that T thought I wouldn't see through...perhaps an empathic failure in T's part? But usually I could handle that as my side of the contract of keeping boundaries. I know I am hypersensitive picking up cues from people, and T is no superman nor would I want T to be.

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Originally Posted by Favorite Jeans View Post
Humour me here, but let‘s try to imagine a best-case T-speak intervention for that situation:

“Client, I am noticing that lately it seems to me that we’ve gotten into a pattern of more informal-type chat and further from a therapeutic style of interacting. Is that an observation that you share? What do you think about that? […]”
"Yes, we've gotten into that pattern, but I disagree on our sessions having less therapeutic effect. This more informal-type chats have been of immense help for me. In my perception we still have those basic boundaries in which I can grow. Our sessions are still about myself. It actually helps me to be honestly myself, by having you being real I can be real myself, I can get closer into what I am really feeling if you're human in this relationship. I can nurture a deeper connection with myself, with my emotions, my needs, my wants, how I actually work if I really let myself be, instead of pleasing whatever conditions I am imposed upon."

Not actual words, but we've had exchanges like this.

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Originally Posted by Favorite Jeans View Post
”[…] As much as I enjoy chatting with you, and recognize the value of having some lighter sessions, I’d like to be more conscious of the fact that this is your therapy time.”
"I appreciate your concern. We're good on my part." - is something I would have replied, but we did never had this part of the talk. T would have known my answer.

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Originally Posted by Favorite Jeans View Post
To me, it seems reasonable that a good T could get a bit derailed from time to time. Crying to YOU that THEY aren’t being professional? I’m not sure if the relationship can come back from that. Or if you want it to. As excruciatingly sad as it would be to let go of someone you care for so much, this relationship may have run its course.
It sort of has and sort of hasn't. I appreciate your concerns, but I am not sad at all. I feel warm and genuinely cared for when I think about that relationship.

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I don't know if you are in the U.S. But, here we have a lot of psychiatrists that do psychotherapy. I mean I have tried out many psychiatrists for therapy and medication. If you need further help, I wonder if you could seek therapy from a psychiatrist and not a fellow therapist.
I haven't thought of this... But I think I would be less comfortable with a psychiatrist than a psychologist. I just don't believe we would be a good match. I don't have any pathologies, I'm there for self-development and self-knowledge I can use and fall back to in my own work.

Thinking about it, it would feel pretty bad for me to have a relationship which offers medication to fall back to, no matter how professional it may be. I never had serious mental health issues unless you could say alienation and low self-esteem is such... No one in my family ever took an alprazolam pill, not parents, not siblings, not cousins. Don't get me wrong, I have multiple psychiatrist friends in my social circle, and I do read the books of MD's but there's something feels off visiting one. Maybe if the psychiatrist is humanistic-existentialist. I don't know. I don't like labels anyway.
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Default Nov 25, 2020 at 06:39 PM
  #32
CBT brainwashing

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Default Nov 25, 2020 at 06:46 PM
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CBT brainwashing
I don't understand
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Default Nov 25, 2020 at 08:28 PM
  #34
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Hi PCF,

I'm a MA-level clinical psychologist in training going under counseling (unrelated to my training).

We have a most peculiar kind of alliance rupture I can't put my fingers on. Perhaps this is quite simple and I just can't see the forest for the trees.

I've been in this private, self-funded therapy with my integrative therapist for about 100ish hours. We have an excellent rapport, excellent relationship. There is a sense of some shared interests (psychology, sports). I sense there is a deep and caring atmosphere for me, and I actually do care for my therapist. T couldn't take my caring well initially, but grew accustomed to.

During our last session T burst out in tears that therapy has to be done the correct way, and for T it looked like we're just talking like friends. I mentioned, I still have a great sense of development and movement in my life. I'm getting closer therapeutic goals. T couldn't accept me being content on the grounds that during the last couple of sessions we weren't professional enough.

It looks like as if professional conduct and my experience of helpful sessions are in conflict.

Shedding some tears T mentions the need of not being transparent and that boundaries weren't invented just for nothing. T kept referring to professional conduct. I was at loss for words, I couldn't reply with anything to comfort T. On my account, there weren't any boundaries violated. Or was it me, who violated, when I replied empathically to a T self-disclosure? Somehow this I doubt. There were a couple of boundary crossings though, so I can understand where T is coming from regarding not having completely sanitized sessions.

From my standpoint, this looks like a weird case of therapeutic rupture, where the break is coming from the expectations of the therapist instead of the client. I wonder how to continue? T emphasized how it's bad that we're talking like friends. T really wants to do a good job, but talking like friends is a no-no. It just occurred to me, T might think of me as a friend? Would it be the right thing for me to end the counselling sessions?

I can let go of me visiting T in the office, but it would be devastating letting go of the relationship. It is a great source of comfort and a powerful incentive of development.

I appreciate your thoughts.

Sounds like your therapist is struggling with counter transference

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Default Dec 03, 2020 at 09:09 PM
  #35
As our sessions terminated with my original T, I've arranged for a new therapist. Let that person be T2. I know I shouldn't generalize from one experience, but so far it was pretty bad. I kept myself in therapy so that I have more experience on the client side. And it alarms me. I don't think I am a good client?

T2 is a strict professional. Has reasonable technical knowledge, impressive clinical experience and is said to be a person very serious about self-development. We've had three sessions so far. The first one was nice, I had good impressions, and really believed that I could have another ball rolling. Then as soon as we started session #2, I felt throughout as if T2 was the true client wanting to be the expert in how life works. T2's needs were much more prominent. I thought, OK, I give it a go. I also sensed, T2 genuinely wanted to help. But that was as real as it gets with T2. Maybe I have authority issues? I felt as if T2 consistently wanted to dominate me throughout the session, and I was in there as some semi-masochistic contender, like training as a martial artist, letting T2 do that, even to a point of succeeding - me losing control. Strangely by the end I felt a bit lifted, because had some fresh insight, but that's about it, I've been kind of tired and depressed since. This increased considerably after our session #3.

T2 constantly had this distant act, being The Expert, and I felt unsuitable, inappropriate and unfit. Both as a person and as a psychologist. T2 had an idea of what my core issues were, and I disagreed. But I acted like just as T2 diagnosed me (mild generalized anxiety disorder) because I could not connect with T2 on a human level. I've been fidgety, not able to connect to myself, but really trying, trying hard to prove my points, but losing my train of thought due to being nervous. My mind went blank multiple times...I was so cut from my experience, I didn't feel safe with T2, but I only recognize this now as I type, this was something I would not have admitted to myself during the session.

Which raises an important question for me.

Is T2 right, or am I right?

T2 says I am right, but I can see the disbelief. It's quite obvious dismissive tone of voice. A kind of "you'll figure it out kid, but let's have your way now" tone.

I'm feeling a bit weird talking to my ex-T about this. We've agreed not to be client & therapist ever again. I'll meet with my supervisor the next week. Not exactly a supervision question, but the best I can do for now.

Last edited by HarperF; Dec 03, 2020 at 09:29 PM..
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Default Dec 04, 2020 at 07:04 AM
  #36
It doesn't sound like T2 is the right therapist for you. Can you keep looking?
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Default Dec 04, 2020 at 07:54 AM
  #37
I don't see it as being 'right' or 'wrong'.

It's about subjective perception both on your and T2's part. T2 is not the expert on you. Then again, from how you present(ed), T2 may have formed an impression of you from what they see of you. It doesn't necessarily mean that either one of you is 'right'.

It does, however, seem that you may not be a good match for one another.
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Default Dec 04, 2020 at 12:32 PM
  #38
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Sounds like your therapist is struggling with counter transference

It seems like countertransference and codependency on her part.
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Default Dec 04, 2020 at 12:37 PM
  #39
Psychiatrists don't always prescribe medication. Just like doctors of other specialties do not prescribe medication for every single situation that a patient comes in for.
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Default Dec 04, 2020 at 01:31 PM
  #40
Hi Harper, I’d say, trust your instincts, you feel that T2 is domineering, and the relationship isn’t helpful, then maybe you are right? I think that therapy can make you doubt yourself over things like this. I think it’s really hard to find a good therapist, and it can take a bit of searching, but it’s worth it.
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