Couch 248: Curiouser and Curiouser

Yes, I think it's bringing up questions of who I am to him (I mean, a client, of course) and the realities of the relationship.

And he does tend to react poorly to being challenged. Right now, I want things like reassurance about the new space, and he seems to be giving me the opposite. It's where my anxious attachment interacts poorly with what I can only assume is his avoidant attachment. The push-pull thing. i push for more support, reassurance, warmth, etc., he pulls further back. (I've brought this dynamic up in the past, and of course he denies pulling back or being more boundaried.)

Unsure on discussing with R more. Dr. T said it would be fine to do one or two sessions with her (so I could theoretically do one more), but more than that, we'd need to have a bigger discussion about it. The one with her Monday helped, I thought, but I still feel in despair with Dr. T and can't really comfort myself--like she was trying to get me to visualize comforting the younger version of myself.

I want to tell Dr. T to talk to me about the move and reassure me like I'm 8 or 12 (or even a teenager, as he works with those in his practice), but I know he doesn't work that way and he'd probably find it silly and say "You're not 8, you're 47." I'm not good at doing it for myself either.

Maybe I need to look for someone else to see for a bit--or longer--I don't know. Like someone who doesn't know him well. Or consider taking a break from therapy and seeing how things go.

The fish itself isn't important, but what it represents is important. Similarly, the decision itself of whether he keeps it or whether you take it back isn't important, but your process around this is important. So I think you are right, objects might not hold the same significance for him as for you (and of course that is fine), but what should be significant to him is your process. He should be able to pay attention to what is happening for you and help you explore what is happening - which might not even involve reassurance. However, hopefully it would involve him remaining congruent whilst also caring about your responses, meanings, experiences, feelings, associations, fears, and all of the goings on in your process. This seems like relational work and maybe that's why he isn't serving you or the work very effectively.

And just to say about the idea of you needing to make yourself small to be acceptable, whilst I can certainly read that in some of what you say (not wanting to repeatedly discuss it, giving a small object etc), I also see how big you are being. You are taking how you feel seriously and you know that this matters. You want to talk about it here, you are driven to speak to him about it, you are having big feelings about it. I think this is part of your agency and good for you for taking up space even at his inconvenience and your discomfort.

Why would you give your T an ultimatum? Do this one thing or else? Don't the past x years mean anything? I don't get it. Has he offered you an ultimatum? If he did, what would it be? YKWIM.

I think it's difficult to identify what is in the territory of an ultimatum and what is confirmation of incompatibility. X years don't always mean much if over that time you have been suppressing your needs or ignoring your gut.

Good point, Comrade.

The therapeutic relationship is hardly the space where one should make oneself smaller to acquiesce to the therapist's process.

This is true. But there’s really only one sure solution: find a therapist you don’t feel you have to be small with.

Actually, beyond natural inclination, it may depend on the person you’re connected to, I think. For instance, I have very few objects that belonged to my father. With him, pictures and memories suffice. It’s not that I loved him less, it’s just somehow I don’t need the object. And maybe Dr T is similar with you, i.e., he doesn’t need the object.

I'm not giving him an ultimatum though? I'm saying how it's painful that he might not take it with him. And might not accept something else. I'm not saying, "Put something of mine in your office or I'll terminate."

This is a good point. Maybe some of this is my suppressing needs for years to appease him and stay on his good side. And it's coming to a head with the fish, so to speak. Like a cresting wave in the ocean, I suppose.

Something that struck me was looking at an old email of his (trying to find what he'd said about a particular thing--unrelated to the fish), where he said the reason he doesn't disclose things like where he goes on vacation and other topics is "I don't want clients to feel they have to take care of me." Like to ask him about his vacation and such.

And I kind of laughed at that, because I *do* very much feel I need to take care of his emotions at times. Like "Don't irritate Dr. T!" (when he's fairly easily irritated). "Don't make him uncomfortable by talking about love feelings!" "Don't say or do anything that will make him feel controlled, even if that's not the intention at all!"

So I feel I sometimes put his needs above my own. Which, of course, is how it is in outside life, like obviously I need to prioritize D's needs, H's needs, etc. at times over mine. Same with friendships. But it doesn't seem like I should have to take care of my therapist's emotions--at least not to this level. I sort of referenced the taking care of his emotions during yesterday's session, but in a side comment way (he said, "I can manage my own emotions").

Anyway...

I mean, I like to think that I can swim the channel or write a great a novel or enjoy a glass of wine without drinking a bottle or relax in other people's company. Doesn't mean that translates into life.

I don't think this is lining up. I completely understand the guy not wanting other people's stuff in his office. I agree with him on that. Even people I love don't get to decorate my house.
If you want to talk about the pain of the loss of the fish -then why not do that rather than focusing on getting the therapist to do an act? It does seem like you try to control him - I don't see it as taking care of his emotions. I do think of it as child like attempts at getting to be one way or the other with you (which would make sense if there is some paternal transference). I don't think, from what I have read, the therapist is supposed to satisfy every want a client has.

To me it seems there is a lot of time/energy spent planning on how to get specific things out of him -Like with the having the appointment even though you were sick because you wanted some emotion from him because you were sick (him being nicer because you were not well thing).

Wanting for her therapist to do an act is exactly what needs to be looked at though. The desire to control is perfectly acceptable (the realisation of it, not always), but this is exactly where he should be working with LT. If he doesn't want stuff in his office, that is his business and his preference - it should not be the focus of LT's attention and he is facilitating her to get distracted by that aspect. He should be working with LT's desire to control, not trying to counter it or reassure it or any other accommodation of it. Be interested in it, explore it, uncover the meaning of it.

Well, he could have not accepted the fish to begin with. He'd already told me early on that he had gifts from clients in his office, so I had assumed that meant he was OK with it. And he found a spot for it. I offered to take it back if it didn't meet his taste, and he said no, that "It was a fine gift."


And I am talking about the pain of it. That's what this is all about--the pain that there might not be a spot for it.


In terms of the appointment when I was sick, it was partly because I'd canceled (granted, with 48 hours notice, when he only requires 24) the previous appointment to meet with R instead. I was concerned if I canceled a second session in a row, he might think it was because i was mad at him, that I was acting out, rather than sick. And I did still want to meet. I think it's OK to want a bit of kind emotion from someone when ill, to be taken care of a bit.

Realized I didn't respond to this insight. He seems to go back and forth between exploring it, like, "what we need to figure out is why this is so important to you" and asserting that it's his space to decorate. Like, examining, then asserting control. I wish we could just stay in the examining space for longer.

And thanks for the comment on how big I am being. I do think it's important and a sign of growth that I'm asserting myself with him (and here), even if it might be bothering him a bit.

This all came about because I was trying to be proactive about the office move and figure out ways to make it easier, both saying good-bye to the old office and welcoming the new one. I didn't intend to get into the whole thing with the fish--I just suggested, "Hey, maybe one way I could feel more comfortable in the new place would be if you would let me be the one to put the fish in its spot or be there when you do it (like he could have had it on his desk when I got there). Which is when he said, "I don't know that I'll have room for everything." I'd just assumed he'd be taking it. So some of my reaction is from being surprised by this, though I suppose better now than the first day in the new office, after I glance around and don't see it.

But thats exactly what youve said. Here, if not yet there. Your not talking about the hurt of his rejection, your talking about losing the power
struggle. But by making it about the power struggle, you can pretend you are not fearful of his rejection, you pretend it doesnt exist, you pretend he loves you, but in reality you only win the power struggle, not his love.

Instead of playing "he loves me, he loves me not", you do something unspeakable to that poor daisy.

I have not seen where you are talking about the pain of the loss - the focus I have read about here is on getting him to act differently - not you wanting to talk about your fish connection. That is where I am saying it doesn't seem to line up - you say you want to talk about the pain but your descriptions here are about getting him to act differently. I mean - the it is so small, and how would it hurt to have the fish there, and so on - that is about how he acts - not how you talk about pain.

I am just giving my observations on it -if you don't think they fit then okay..

In case anyone is curious, here's what he said when I asked if he could type up the sort of reassurances he shared yesterday, as I apparently wasn't in a place to take them in at the time (I didn't mention his seeming robotic).

"I’m sorry that this has been so difficult for you, [LT]. This change will be a challenge that we can address and get through together. Regarding the fish, I do want you to know that my intention to approach furnishing the office with a clean slate is not in any way personal to you, a reflection on the fish itself, or a rejection/abandonment of you. I value our work together, care about your welfare and wellbeing, and am committed to supporting you, your mental health, and your growth."

It helped to hear him say it would be a challenge we'd get through together. And some of the other stuff. But the figuring it out and working through it together is what I maybe needed to hear. The collaboration part.

Stopdog, we will make a working therapist out of you yet.

And comrademoomoo, good post, both of you.

LT - I think we are just trying to get you to see the subtle differences in what is going, just different slices of it, different perspectives.

ETA - "The collaboration part". Yes! That is what you are disallowing when you give an ultimatum. You try to refuse him space in his own space. He cannot collaborate with you if you are standing in his space.

We have talked about the pain and his trying to understand it. I just don't write every single moment from my sessions here, so I can understand why you got a different impression. Like he was also saying he wanted to understand what it meant for me to have the fish in the office, if it was about my having a sort of presence there, and we discussed that a couple sessions ago.

Thanks, Lost. Just realized I didn't reply to this. Yeah, there seems the implication that it might not be appropriate.


I also question how it's become this big conflict. I was also thinking of how I gave it to honor our 5 years of work together. It wasn't intended to just be about *me*, but the work. Also, the actual live Fish (capitalized because that was her name) that once lived in his office.

And in general, I don't tend to be controlling about gifts. It feels nice when my H wears a shirt I gave him, especially a T-shirt that I thought he'd find to be funny. I make sure to wear things he gave me for the same reason. But I wouldn't interrogate him about why he wasn't wearing someting I gave him. (I might say, if it was soon after, "If you didn't like it or it didn't fit well, I can return it-it's all good.") I gave my mom a notepad that I figured she could use in their beach condo, and it felt nice to see that she was using it. But if it hadn't been there, I wouldn't have been like, "hey, where's that notepad I gave you?"

This just stirs up something different in me for whatever reason.

So - what else then do you want from him? He discussed it - where do you go next? From here it looks like you still want him to do something else.

Keep practicing the self comfort techniques- even if they are not perfectly doing what you are looking for -these things seem to take practice.

Or you could look at it like these sorts of entanglements are what is therapy and that you are raging against the human condition until acceptance or change comes. So the conflicts you have with him are the process of you acting out until whatever happens so that therapy can be said to work.