Abusive manipulation or am I paranoid?

I am fairly new here and have posted in the new members welcome section. I wanted to post something here to get some feedback.


I have recently began to see behavior in my wife that indicates possible narcissistic tendencies or disorder. I am aware of the problems of diagnosing something like this from inside the relationship, but at this point I am seeing a therapist once a week, but she is not willing to go see anyone. My question is that recently I have started to question her motives on behaviors that have been there for many years and that I have never thought much of because I assumed she had good and pure intentions. I am seeing things that look fairly innocent, but yet looked at from a different view could be subtle manipulations. Let me give you an example:

This past Friday I went to see a new therapist. My wife and I have been struggling in our relationship and haven't spoken a whole lot at all in the last 2 weeks. I told her at 9 AM on Friday morning that I had an appointment with a new therapist. She wanted to talk, and I listened without responding more than about 5 words.


She followed me talking as I went to get ready to go. She stood outside the shower and talked while I was showering, she followed me outside to get my shoes, and was basically no more than 10 feet away from the time I told her, until I left (about 1 hour). I said I really had to go, and just had to leave even though she didn't appear done talking.


When I got to the appointment, she texted me at 2 minutes before my scheduled appointment start time and apologized if she had made me late. After the appointment was over I texted her to let her know I was running to the store and wouldn't be home for a bit still. She called me immediately after this text, but I didn't answer and texted her that I didn't really want to talk and needed time to process what I had discussed with the therapist. She then texted that she just had a question about our upcoming taxes, I then texted that I would be home in an hour and we could look at her question. She immediately texted back that it was no big deal because she had called our CPA to get the answer. By the time stamps on my phone the total time elapsed between her texting me she had a question and then texting me again that she had called the CPA and gotten an answer was 3 minutes.


So I feel like a paranoid detective, but I can't figure out how she could call me with a supposed question about taxes, text me that she had a question about taxes, then call the CPA and get the answer to that question, and text me that she had called the CPA, all in about 3 minutes. All of this happened within seconds of me letting her know I was done with my therapy session.


It felt like she was leaving me alone during the session because that would be too obvious, and the therapist would see that, but she wanted to have maximum contact with me immediately before the session, and immediately after. Her reason for calling about having a question on taxes felt completely made up as an excuse to talk to me and influence my session with the therapist before I had internalized anything. Like she wanted to make sure that whatever the therapist said was "spun" in the right way so as to not be damaging for her.

Am I crazy? Or does this appear like manipulative behavior to anyone else?

Her behavior does sound strange from what you have shared. Does she isolate you?

I didn't realize she was, but just recently I realized I don't talk to my mom or my sisters more than once a year or sometimes even less. I thought about why I don't care for my family much and it was because they had done or said things that I disagreed with enough to kind of separate myself from them. The thing that freaked me out (I just realized this a week ago) was that I tried to think if I had seen or heard them do or say the things that bothered me. I never witnessed it myself, it was always second hand from my wife. I believed what she told me they had said because at the time I had no reason to think it wasn't true. Last week I remembered a fight that my wife and I got into that started because of something my wife had said that my mom had said. It ended in a big blow up fight. I paused for a minute last week and texted my mom and told her I really wound not be upset if she had said this, but that I just really needed to know why she had thought that. My mom was perplexed even by my question, and when I got more specific she outright said "Why would I say that, that's not what happened." So I haven't confronted my wife with this fabrication of my mother's words, but it has now made me start to question the motives of a lot of things she says and does. I have also found myself thinking poorly about people that used to be my friends, and again it seems to originate from me being offended by something my wife told me they had said or done.

I am freaked out by all of this, because it doesn't even seem real that all of this distance from my family and not really having any friends could be deliberate. It just seems like i'm in the twilight zone

The more I go through her behavior in my mind, the more freaked out I get. In this hour long "talk" where I said 5 words and she talked non-stop for an hour, I tried something. She has for many years tried to convince me that I have a mental disease. I know this sounds like I grabbed it from a the narcissist text book, but I swear to you on my life that she told me once about 7 years ago when I was so frustrated with how my life seemed to be going and she said "Well (insert my name), you do have a disease." At the time I was hurt and bothered that she would think I was that mentally ill, but I thought her intentions where good. This last talk on Friday she said her brother had brought up to her that she might look into me being bipolar (note how she didn't think it, but her brother suggested it to her). Just to see what would happen, I said "That does worry me sometimes that I might be bipolar."

I don't worry about it and know I'm not bipolar. Anyone in my entire life, family and friends included, would crack up at the suggestion that I might be bipolar. This comment about me being concerned about it opened the flood gates. She suggested that my therapist test me, and that medications were very effective, and that she had been reading a book on how to deal with a bipolar spouse but she thought I would be hurt if she told me about it. She hugged me and said she would stick by me and love me, and she was so sorry that I had to go such difficult things.


I did catch that it was her brother that supposedly suggested I might be bipolar, but yet she has been reading a book long before he came to visit.


I have been treated for depression, but my last therapist said that she wasn't surprised I was depressed and she thought my depression wasn't biological in origin, but in fact caused by my wife's behavior towards me. Of course I stopped seeing that therapist because my wife felt she wasn't the best fit for me, and I "agreed" because I thought my wife was really looking out for me.


I could go on and on, but the more I think about it the more I find events in the history of our relationship that point towards covert manipulation. How can someone think that way? How can she rationalize knowing that she is responsible for causing me years of pain and isolation? Does she even know she has done it? I have to think that she doesn't realize the consequences of it. If I think that she does know what she is doing, the pain of that reality is like nothing I have ever known.

I don't think you are crazy. I don't know what her intentions are, but I feel that she doesn't respect your boundaries.

There could be several possible reasons for her behavior:

1). Insecurity, suspicion, and fear of abandonment: She may be afraid that you were convinced in a therapy to leave her. Or maybe she is afraid you will bump into someone pretty or interesting, if you are not constantly connecting with her.

2). Excessive attention-seeking/ loneliness. Being alone makes her anxious, maybe (?) Does she feel empty or incomplete without constant contact with you? Does she have a life of her own, like friends, career, hobbies, or volunteering work that she can focus on?

3). Wanting control.

Or there could be a completely different reason for her behavior. Have you asked her to go to a couples counseling with you? Maybe she just wants to be included in your life more (?)

First of all, take some deep breaths and try to remain calm about what you are beginning to suspect. It's very possible that your wife was slowly trying to isolate you from your family and friends without your realizing it. People who are controlling do look to find ways to isolate their partner, it can happen so gradually that, as you mentioned you don't realize what's happening. After all, this is your wife, someone you WANTED in your life to love and have a partnership with, how would you suspect she was slowly finding ways to distance you from your own family and friends? Often when someone uses gaslighting methods, the person they are manipulating has no idea that's what is taking place. Also, just so you know, often individuals who are trying to isolate someone also convince that person THEY are the one that is sick, so it's not surprising she has picked out some kind of disorder she begins to convince you that you have.

It's very important that you find ways to see a therapist without your wife knowing too. She really seems to get VERY nervous about the fact that you have finally reached out for help, she clearly sees that as a threat to her control. Also, you don't have to share what you talk about in therapy, all you have to do is say that you just want to learn how to better manage your depression so you are "there" more for her. This will put her at ease while you work on getting to the bottom of the REAL problem you are having.

Try to keep in mind that people who want "all the control" will find ways to fault anyone they feel threatens their control. They tend to find ways to get you to disconnect with family and friends, and you are NOW slowly realizing that your disconnect with your family and friends were brought on by things she told you about them that were lies. This is definitely a red flag. You will have to take steps to keep her thinking she has all the control until you get to the bottom and find out the "truth".

I'm so sorry you're going through all of this, Bowdent I agree with what all the others have already wisely said better than I ever could. She seems VERY controlling and manipulative. I'm so sorry she has done so many things to you. The good news is, you're starting to become aware of it. That's great! Now you can finally start working on it. Keep going to therapy. Hopefully you'll become even more aware of it and of how she's manipulating you. After you get to the bottom of this, you may want to leave her for good. It's clear that she's not doing too much good in your life. We don't need more toxic people in your life. Go to therapy, but don't let her know that you're aware of her manipulation. Lie if you have to. Just try to get away from her, even slowly if you have to. I'm so sorry. It's never easy when we feel betrayed by the people we love. Remember that we're here for you if you need it. Feel free to PM me anytime. Let me know if I can do something to help you. Wish you good luck! Let us know how it goes. I'm so sorry you have to deal with all of this

Thank you so much for this. You're words are greatly comforting, mostly because I feel like you truly believe me, and seem to know how I feel. I don't know how, but I get the feeling you get it. My concern right now is that I'm looking too hard for deceptive behavior. I don't want to fall into the trap of "you'll find what your looking for." Yet it is so difficult, actually impossible, to remain completely objective. It feels very uncomfortable to not just try and express exactly how I'm feeling. I don't want to feel like I am doing the same things to her that I think she is doing to me, but I don't know any other way to protect myself from her attempts to hurt me. I am terrified that she will accuse me of doing the same thing as she has done, and now we are "even" so we can start fresh.


My first visit with the new therapist was this past Friday when this discussion took place and I saw this behavior. I have a weekly standing appointment with the new therapist now. The therapist suggested that I ask my wife if she thought therapy might be helpful for her, and so I asked her. My wife responded that she had been to one before and didn't like them. The only therapist she had thought about maybe seeing was the one that I decided to start seeing, so now she can't really because this therapist doesn't do couples therapy. So in her mind I took away the only therapist option for her.

It's so painful to look at her differently, like she seems like a totally different person now. Looking at her all actions as potentially manipulative is not a pleasant place to be.

Again, thank you for your words of encouragement, it means so much to me.

It's understandable how this can be both confusing and scary for you. That's why I suggest you not panic but instead address your concerns as calmly as possible so you can have time to sort this all out. It's important that you focus on yourself right now. If she has a problem it would not be something she would care to admit so it's better that you take the time to slowly step back and see if there really is a problem then talk to your therapist to see what you can do to address it. Don't choose to panic, I do believe you and that you are very concerned, that's why I am suggesting you not panic and take the time to sort it all out "first" and don't say anything to her.

I agree about not panicking and also about privacy surrounding your therapy sessions. I was at least forewarned through another support group years ago when still married about the importance of not feeling compelled to overshare my sessions because it can be used against you when in troubled marriages then negate the process plus....there's a right to...privacy, not be followed around to the bathroom(one persons spouse used to ban them from closing the door....), to not be blocked from entryways...
Control can come from a place of fear and it's better to not try to overanalyze the psychology of a spouse but focus on yourself and your own reactions...
I, too, believe you.

Sounds like she doesnt trust you and the one that's paranoid. Texting then calling is a typical sign to check up on you using a lame excuse to text and call to see what you're really doing. In her mind you must be cheating because the relationship is in a ruff patch. Hopefully it all works out.

Does she say things like,

You: “Maybe we could visit my Mom/Sister”
Her: “Great idea... but I have a better idea: why don’t you and I take the opportunity to go on an exciting/romantic/exotic/ trip to [somwhere that isn’t near your Mom/Sister]”

“they could have visited you but they haven’t so they don’t care about you”

“Why did person A call you? You don’t really have anyything in common now anyway”

“Why did person B call you—they’re always bugging you”

“Why did person C call you—they haven’t bothered to call you for months”

Also:
Do you have friends you no longer see?
Did you used to hang out with work colleagues that somehow you just no longer hang out with?

I don’t think any if it is with evil intent, but as pointed out elsewhere, possession isn’t love, and if she is spending her time undercutting you and making you doubt yourself and trying to control you and shrinking your world she’s not likely to stop and she’s not being a good partner. “I only do it because I love you so much and I love being with you”

And so on

It's gotten drastically worse. I think she has figured out somehow that have figured out that I'm seeing her true self. She seems to be doing everything she can to remove me from my life, and my kids life. She has come up with a new in home job plan, planned activities for them, and come up with a consequence for misbehavior program for them. All of this with zero input, or even knowledge from me. Last night when I got home she tried to get my 10 year old daughter to go deliver the consequence to my 15 year old son for him not doing his "daily job". My 10 year old daughter is her golden child right now and she said "Why don't you go tell your brother that he gets to lose his phone for tomorrow?" "Or you could do his job for him...even though he never helps you out with anything." "Why don't you just go tell him."

I stepped in and did his job for him because the age difference between these 2 siblings has put them into constant friction. I could sense she knew it would cause friction and that's why she seemed to be baiting my daughter into the opportunity to exercise "parental-like authority" over her older brother.


That same 15 year old son has been struggling a lot with school lately, almost failing his math class. We got him a tutor so he could bring his grade up, but when I got home last night he said he wasn't able to see the tutor because his mom wouldn't take him. It conflicted with her yoga class that she took my 13 year old daughter to. This is only the 3rd or 4th time I have seen her go to yoga class in the 24 years we have been together. I asked my son how that made him feel and he said "It doesn't really matter how I feel, we live in mom's world, and I have to just deal with it for 3 more years. and then I hope I never have to see her again." I know teens say things about disliking their parents, but this was not said in a burst of anger, or rebellion. He said it in a quiet, calm tone, with a look of intense sadness and defeat on his face. My wife is pushing him to the edge of his capacity to emotionally cope with his pain.

I am no longer sharing these things on this site to get reassurance that my wife has a mental illness. The things I have witnessed over the past several years, along with seeing the things before that with new eyes, show me that I need no reassurance of the things I know in my soul. My children are in danger of suffering severe, irreparable emotional and psychological damage, but there is no way I can get them away from her. No solution, be it divorce, separation, or doing nothing at all can save them from her. The harder I try to show her that the things she is doing to them and me, the more subtle and malicious her attacks become. There have been times where she was berating them, and I knew if I stepped in, she would back off and then berate them 10 times worse when I wasn't there, because she has done that before, more than once. So, I left and vomited in the bathroom because I was so sickened that I couldn't stop my wife from destroying my beautiful children.


I don't know what to do, there seems to be no way to escape her grasp. I don't see a way to help my children grow and turn into wonderful human beings. I have lost the vision of all I thought it was to be a father, and to see my kids experience the joys of life. Instead I spend nearly all of my waking hours trying to figure out a way to protect them from the woman who is supposed to be the most nurturing soul the would ever know.


I realize that no one on this website can really tell me what I need to do. I understand that I alone can make the decisions I need to make. I just never knew I would be required to walk through the fires of hell to rescue my children from their own mother.

Thank you for your support. It's Wednesday, only 2 more days until I see my therapist again, and she can help guide me. Just 2 more days.

Hang in there, Bowdent!

She says all of those things and more. Like "I don't know how you ended up so stable and emotionally perceptive with the way your family is so screwed up." That was 2 months ago, now she says "I sincerely think you might be bipolar." How did I go from stable and perceptive to bipolar in 2 months? The truth is I didn't, and I also used to think it wasn't with evil intent. After years of soul searching, reading, going to therapy, and forgiving her verbal, emotional, and physical abuse (yes, there has been physical as well) I have exhausted every other possible solution besides that she is doing it with the most evil and malicious intent. The kicker is that we can't even talk about it because according to her 99% of the painful events that I experienced never happened.

Try to hang on, Bowdent. I'm sure you'll be able to get through this. You're a wonderful person. I'm so sorry you've had to put up with your wife for so long. But at least you know better now. I hope you'll be able to get away from her as soon as you can. I hope your children will be ok in all of this as well. Remember that we're here for you if you need it. Feel free to PM me anytime. Let me know if I can do something to help you. Wish you good luck! Let us know how it goes. I'm so sorry you have to deal with all of this

Your wife sounds very unstable and selfish. She should not be sending a ten year old to punish her older brother either.

Be patient with this and talk it over with your therapist and see what you can do to change what you are seeing taking place that you know is unhealthy for you and your children.

You can come and vent here in your thread as needed ((Bowdent)).

I’m in a slightly different place: I’ve been separated 1.5 years with divorce case winding down. I have sole custody of younger child (16); wife has custody of golden child (a year older).

I find it telling that your original post was a question because that’s what a manipulative abuser will do: twist everything around so you don’t know what’s real or true any more.

Here’s my fav 3 quotes from a book I just finished reading on this (Power by S. Arabi):

“Why would the same person who claimed to love and care for you hurt you—over and over without a hint of empathy or remorse?”

“This type of abuse is brimming with psychological mind games, touched with a dash of intermittent sweetness to keep the victim constantly teetering over the edge of uncertainty and self-doubt.”

“What was once the promise of a partnership becomes a twisted power play”

That setting of one child to be the policeman of the other is despicable: terrible for both kids and just designed to cause chaos and strife: because chaos is where the manipulator is most comfortable, and serenity, where people can think, is terrible. Luckily your son sounds like he’s very well aware of the situation—which is not pleasant, but it’s useful for him.

So sorry you’re going through this—it sounds miserable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowdent So I haven't confronted my wife with this fabrication of my mother's words, but it has now made me start to question the motives of a lot of things she says and does.

I think the confront part could be an issue because confronting someone always puts them on the defensive and it will never solve anything or get you the answers that you want. Everything else aside...can you live with her if she never changes? If you cant you might consider an exit strategy now before its too late.

I have read, or rather listened to audiobook, of POWER by Arabi. It was one of the things that drove me to realize finally what was going on. I literally felt nauseated as I listened to many parts of it as I saw with new eyes the explanations that perfectly outlined the irrational behavior that I have seen. I actually stepped in and did the chores for my older son to prevent my 10 year old daughter from policing him which would have ended in an angry flare up and him being punished further. This was as plain as can be, it's happened so many times before. My son is well aware of the situation, but it doesn't stop his deep emotional pain. He is so incredibly articulate with his words. When he expresses himself to my wife, he actually uses vocabulary that is over her head because he is so articulate. This infuriates her because she knows she just doesn't understand what he is saying. It makes her feel dumb and she lashes back. He just says he is not doing it to make her feel dumb, but these are the words that he has learned, and that best identify his thoughts. It really seems to come down to that she is very intimidated and scared by his intelligence and lack of ability to be intimidated.