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Default Jun 06, 2019 at 09:13 AM
  #1
This thread idea came from someone telling me that just because someone tells me how I should feel about them, that doesn't mean that they are a bad person.

Um, that's 100% wrong. When someone tells you "it's fine if you don't like me," or tells you how to feel -- that is covert verbal abuse.

Why it's Really Covert Verbal Abuse When Someone is Telling You How You SHOULD Feel - The Good Men Project

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Covert verbal abuse happens when someone tells you how you feel, what you think, or what you need or want. It’s sneaky. You might not see it as abuse… yet. You will soon if you keep reading.
The other thread I started about immature adults and that guy who no-showed on me, who told me that "it's your choice if you don't want to be friends with me," is why I started this thread.

He tried to verbally abuse me via text and Facebook, after I called him out for no-showing on me, when he told me I was overreacting for being angry that he didn't communicate to me ahead of time that he wasn't going to show up for our coffee date that HE initiated, and when he told me that it was my choice not to be his friend anymore. Those are two examples of his covert verbal abuse.

I think verbal abuse is a real thing, that is DOES indicate that the person who uses it, IS A BAD PERSON, and there is no justification that someone who uses covert verbal abuse is a good person.

I am SO relieved that I blocked that guy from my cellphone and Facebook and ended my connection with him permanently. The question is, how do we recognize covert verbal abuse right away?

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Default Jun 06, 2019 at 11:59 AM
  #2
This is a bit of a nuanced subject, but I'll try to make it as clear as I can while also giving it the depth it deserves, and will probably fail at both.

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Originally Posted by StreetcarBlanche View Post
Um, that's 100% wrong. When someone tells you "it's fine if you don't like me," or tells you how to feel -- that is covert verbal abuse.

The other thread I started about immature adults and that guy who no-showed on me, who told me that "it's your choice if you don't want to be friends with me," is why I started this thread.
And here's where it gets tricky...

What you're talking about is called "gaslighting," or rather, it's one method of gaslighting with the larger goal of weakening, and then controlling, the subject's emotions. It's definitely a real thing, and I'd agree that Mr. NoShow sounds like a manipulative person.

Except this line: "It's fine if you don't like me." That bit, I just can't agree that it's manipulative.

Allow me to draw some distinctions. Gaslighting occurs when an abuser attempts to control another's emotional state, to invalidate their feelings by making those feelings seem trivial or exaggerated or whatever else. In which case, him telling you that you overreacted is a form of gaslighting. To be clear, I wouldn't armchair diagnose him as a narcissist based only on that one instance, but it seems like this is a pattern of behavior for this guy, so I'd at least be wary of it.

By contrast, when he tells you "it's fine if you don't like me," then he is validating your feelings. He's giving you control and space, allowing you to decide how you feel about him and what to do about it. To be fair, it does seem like it's coming from an angry and defensive place for him, but it doesn't change the fact that he's handing over the reigns to you.

And considering his other behaviors, it's probably best that you did step away from the relationship. Even if that bit isn't manipulative, I think some of his other behavior was.

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1. I think verbal abuse is a real thing, 2. that is DOES indicate that the person who uses it, IS A BAD PERSON, and 3. there is no justification that someone who uses covert verbal abuse is a good person.

I am SO relieved that I blocked that guy from my cellphone and Facebook and ended my connection with him permanently.
1. Agreed.
2. If it's a consistent pattern of behavior, I'd agree that the perpetrator is a person to be avoided for one's own mental health.
3. Disagreed. Human behavior is rarely so simple, and there's a plethora of different reasons as to why someone becomes manipulative. However, unless you're a therapist who is treating the manipulative person, I hardly think it's in your best interest to continue dealing with the manipulative person in the long term. It's in your best interest to stay away from that person so as not to be affected by their behavior. In which case, does it really matter why they're doing it? (Because, if you really want to know, that subject has filled entire books).

I'm glad you've cut this person out of your life. He doesn't sound like a very good person, and it doesn't seem he's willing to change anytime soon.

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The question is, how do we recognize covert verbal abuse right away?
Well ... hehe ... Maybe a lengthy discussion on that deserves its own post, and maybe even its own thread. Suffice it to say, it's no simple task. If you'd like to know, however, I'd be more than willing to discuss it at length.
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Default Jun 06, 2019 at 01:49 PM
  #3
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Um, that's 100% wrong. When someone tells you "it's fine if you don't like me," or tells you how to feel -- that is covert verbal abuse.
This is something I have experienced myself FROM a toxic person who insists on having ALL THE CONTROL. It has been horrible and very toxic and I even have my own thread where I often vent my frustrations about it. It's also an individual who definitely does a lot of gaslighting too. Gaslighters use a piece of truth and then they create a story of their own that is not true. It's all in their own effort to confuse and control and have the world revolve around THEM. What you just quoted above is definitely something I have experienced from this toxic person too.

One thing I have talked about is that knowing how that has so badly affected me personally, I feel that when interacting with others sometimes they actually exhibit behaviors that are "off" in some way and that CAN mean that they get upset because they themselves faced narcissistic abuse. So, IMHO, it's important to step back and think about this person's behavior and if this person is genuinely being defensive, OR, is this person manipulating you.

If someone has been manipulated by a toxic person for a lengthy time, that person can at times be immature in their responses because they are still carrying what can be a lot of narcissistic toxic messages in them where they are still working on actually feeling "free" to finally express themselves in a normal healthy way. So, just because a person doesn't react the way you expect or want, it doesn't always mean they are a bad person, instead it can actually mean they are themselves struggling with some victim mentality issues and are not able yet to respond in a healthier way.

One thing you learn as you experience life, is there is no such thing as "the perfect person". An imperfect person doesn't mean that person is a narcissist covert or otherwise.
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Default Jun 06, 2019 at 03:46 PM
  #4
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Originally Posted by theoretical View Post


Except this line: "It's fine if you don't like me." That bit, I just can't agree that it's manipulative.

By contrast, when he tells you "it's fine if you don't like me," then he is validating your feelings. He's giving you control and space, allowing you to decide how you feel about him and what to do about it. To be fair, it does seem like it's coming from an angry and defensive place for him, but it doesn't change the fact that he's handing over the reigns to you.

I respect your opinion, theoretical and agree with what you thoughtfully wrote for the most part.

BUT...

We will agree to disagree about his sentence "it's fine if you don't like me."

I don't agree with you that he said it to validate my feelings, give me control and space, or allow me to decide how I feel about him.

He doesn't get to dictate to me how I feel or how I think about his actions. He doesn't get to "allow" me to decide how I feel about him. That seems like a very passive aggressive statement in itself.

I really don't see the connection between his passive aggressive statement and how that validates my feelings. That's nonsense, to be blunt.

Here's an example of a validating statement, "How can I help you get through this right now?"

"It's fine if you don't like me," is not a validating statement. It's a very passive aggressive statement, said as a last resort by him to attempt to provoke an angry, emotional response from me, to validate his narcissistic ego. "See, I made Blanche mad. I'm awesome."

A 50 year old man who can't be bothered to text a woman HE initiated a coffee date with, a communication text "Sorry I can't make our coffee date," is NOT a man who gives a **** about my feelings. He is definitely NOT validating my feelings, giving me space, control, or whatever.

I'm shocked and disappointed that you defend this scumbag the way that you do.
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Default Jun 06, 2019 at 04:38 PM
  #5
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Originally Posted by StreetcarBlanche View Post
I'm shocked and disappointed that you defend this scumbag the way that you do.
I'm curious as to why you think I'm defending him, especially since I agreed with you that his behavior was unacceptable, regardless of his reasons, and that you should avoid him.

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Originally Posted by Open Eyes View Post
So, IMHO, it's important to step back and think about this person's behavior and if this person is genuinely being defensive, OR, is this person manipulating you.

If someone has been manipulated by a toxic person for a lengthy time, that person can at times be immature in their responses because they are still carrying what can be a lot of narcissistic toxic messages in them where they are still working on actually feeling "free" to finally express themselves in a normal healthy way. So, just because a person doesn't react the way you expect or want, it doesn't always mean they are a bad person, instead it can actually mean they are themselves struggling with some victim mentality issues and are not able yet to respond in a healthier way.

One thing you learn as you experience life, is there is no such thing as "the perfect person". An imperfect person doesn't mean that person is a narcissist covert or otherwise.
I agree. In fact, I'd say this is true for the majority of manipulative people. To be clear, though, I wouldn't excuse their behavior for this reason, and would still hold them accountable. It's the only way they'll ever change, if they can change.
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Default Jun 06, 2019 at 04:43 PM
  #6
Because you don't view his statement as passive aggressive but as something completely different; So, I'm confused because I can't see how or why he'd say that to me, after the way he acted like such an asshole by not showing up and not texting me ahead of time to tell he wasn't going to even bother coming.

I do respect your difference of opinion, but I just can't agree with it b/c I can't see how there's any empathy from some 50 year old guy who didn't respect me enough to let me know ahead of time he wasn't going to meetup with me. So, that statement conflicts with his actions.
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Default Jun 06, 2019 at 05:03 PM
  #7
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Originally Posted by StreetcarBlanche View Post
Because you don't view his statement as passive aggressive but as something completely different; So, I'm confused because I can't see how or why he'd say that to me, after the way he acted like such an asshole by not showing up and not texting me ahead of time to tell he wasn't going to even bother coming.

I do respect your difference of opinion, but I just can't agree with it b/c I can't see how there's any empathy from some 50 year old guy who didn't respect me enough to let me know ahead of time he wasn't going to meetup with me. So, that statement conflicts with his actions.
Without me knowing a lot more about the situation, it would be impossible for me to make an educated guess as to what was going on his head, so I'm not going to try. Although, I can think of a number of reasons as to why he would say that, I lean more to the idea that he felt bad about it, but didn't want to fully admit it or take responsibility. Again, it's still childish and rude, but I hardly think it's deliberate manipulation or gaslighting, which is much more severe.

I'll try to go more in depth on it later, especially since I had a similar mishap with one of my friends the other night, but I need to get ready for work.

And regardless, I still think the best thing for you is to end the relationship. He doesn't seem to be in a good place.
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Default Jun 06, 2019 at 07:35 PM
  #8
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Originally Posted by StreetcarBlanche View Post
Because you don't view his statement as passive aggressive but as something completely different; So, I'm confused because I can't see how or why he'd say that to me, after the way he acted like such an asshole by not showing up and not texting me ahead of time to tell he wasn't going to even bother coming.

I do respect your difference of opinion, but I just can't agree with it b/c I can't see how there's any empathy from some 50 year old guy who didn't respect me enough to let me know ahead of time he wasn't going to meetup with me. So, that statement conflicts with his actions.
You are actually being healthy by not making excuses for him but instead choosing to respect yourself, and expecting to be treated with respect.
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Default Jun 06, 2019 at 07:58 PM
  #9
It takes some life experience, people skills, insight and good observation to see when people are being sincere and when they are just jerks in their words or actions..

It doesn’t really matter why and what he said. He stood you up. That’s low.

I am 53 and have met ton of people in my life including dates and friends of both gender. I’ve met people who cancel. I cancel myself when need to. But I have never been stood up, not once. So I dare to say it’s not normal or typical or acceptable or common occurrence. Not because I am that great but because it’s just not a common thing to do. You show up to a place and other person just a no show. Com’n now

Nowadays with electronics etc people don’t stand others up. He thinks standing people up is no big deal. Sure... in his world. I think being more selective is the key.

It doesn’t matter why he said what he said. We can’t control other people. We can only control ourselves and who we surround yourself with. Don’t spend another minute thinking about this guy. Surround yourself with decent people
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Default Jun 07, 2019 at 03:32 AM
  #10
Saying " its fine if you dont like me" or " you dont have to be friends with me" (paraphrasing) is such a passive aggressive cop out IMO. It completely shifts the blame and ownership of his behavior on to you. HE made the bad choice and rather than own it and validate you he back handedly kinda made and excuse and then shifted his part onto your shoulders. He is a jerk.

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Default Jun 07, 2019 at 04:34 AM
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Saying " its fine if you dont like me" or " you dont have to be friends with me" (paraphrasing) is such a passive aggressive cop out IMO. It completely shifts the blame and ownership of his behavior on to you. HE made the bad choice and rather than own it and validate you he back handedly kinda made and excuse and then shifted his part onto your shoulders. He is a jerk.
Yup. Well said.
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Default Jun 07, 2019 at 10:19 AM
  #12
Thank you divine and sarahsweets for your posts in my thread. You both understand exactly who this asshole is. He totally blame shifted by telling me "you don't have to like me/be friends with me," as if to put HIS bad choice of no-showing and being inconsiderate on my shoulders, as though it was my fault, which it isn't. I don't stand people up and I always communicate with them b/c I respect other people's time.
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Default Jun 08, 2019 at 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
Saying " its fine if you dont like me" or " you dont have to be friends with me" (paraphrasing) is such a passive aggressive cop out IMO. It completely shifts the blame and ownership of his behavior on to you.
Yes, I agree. Unless someone doesn't like you or don't want to be friends with you without cause, you have to address the cause.

How to Make an Adept, Sincere Apology
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Default Jun 09, 2019 at 05:34 AM
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Yes, I agree. Unless someone doesn't like you or don't want to be friends with you without cause, you have to address the cause.

How to Make an Adept, Sincere Apology
What a great article resource, ennie, thank you!

There are definitely genuine and superficial apologies. The guy I posted about in the other thread, tried to make ME feel guilty for his bad behavior, so his words fit the "non-apology wording" category. Funny, he's a grown man with a college age child, yet he still won't take responsibility for his actions. I feel sorry for his child, as they have a terrible parent-role-model (someone who is emotionally immature, self-centered).

If he'd done any of the following I would have been surprised, b/c that would have meant he gave a genuine apology (but he didn't, or couldn't):

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Acknowledge what you did was wrong
Accept responsibility for your action
Make attempts to atone for the wrong you committed
Give assurances that the transgression will not happen again
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