The fundamental problem I have with people

I see. But what are proven facts? Proof is more often than not depending on certain assumptions of causality. To a religious person, the concept of God is even a proven fact. To somebody who is more scientifically biased, science offers proven facts. To a positivist, next to nothing is a proven fact. Even that the sun will rise tomorrow is a mere assumption.

I guess what I mean that we all argue hypothetically all the time. Maybe the problem you have about other people is precisely that. They argue hypothetically (often believing they have proven facts), you don't. In a way that makes you superior in any given situation. An argument with you can't be won. Many people become aggressive when they sense that their opinions don't hold water.

And actually here I am hypothesizing. I once had a very intelligent, matter-of-fact, perfect wife, and she started abusing me for being so given to speculation. So I am the opposite pole, I guess.

You are arguing ad absurdam - no normal person thinks like this in their everyday life, much less someone thinking logically. Even if you take axiomatically the idea that nothing is certain, one can calculate the odds of things being true and use that. The odds of the Sun not rising tomorrow are so small it would be ridiculous to gamble on its failure.

You can win any argument with me as long as you have the facts. But odds are I have the facts first, because any gap my mind has will be exploited by predators. I have a strong incentive to be correct - not being so means someone hospitalizes me. If you lose an argument, you might be embarrassed; if I lose an argument I could be killed. People do not hold back when they "punish" me.

She should not have abused you. She was wrong to do that.

That's nice of you to say that.

By the way, when it came to stochastic and statistics in school, that was the only time I became quite engaged with numbers - because I fantasized or philosophized a lot about the reality of probability. I always came to the conclusion that probability is a kind of magical concept, or a means to create dependability for events which are in reality totally unforeseeable. Of course, that was a sign of intellectual hubris.

I don't know, but maybe I am willing to admit that you won this argument about logic.

However I still think that applying logic, like possessing wisdom, can lead to discrimination, being ostracized, eventually even incarceration and death. That was for example Wilhelm Reich's theory about why Jesus was killed (and about himself).

And that is why I am not letting go - but in the end of course I cannot know about the true threads you are exposed to.

All metaphorical swords are double-edged; anything can be used for good or ill. Evil is in the will of the wielder, not the weapon.

Just to clarify: I meant that they who appy logic are not the aggressors, because logic is neutral. But logic can be very frustrating to normal, illogical people. They then wield the sword. In the best case they want to cut the logical Gordian knot with it, in the worst case they want to cut the logician.

But what else can I do? I can't stoop to their level and be as illogical as they are. Yet not being allied with anyone puts me at an extreme socioeconomic disadvantage - which everyone takes advantage of. They use my difference as an excuse to attack me and keep me chained.

"What can I do" is a deep question. I guess the answer lies in who you are. Maybe you can really do nothing. A Christian once quoted the Bible to me, saying something like "the leopard cannot change his spots". He said that it makes no sense to try harder, experiment in self-betterment etc. That the allure of the Christian tradition lies in that one person who will accept you as who and how you are. Even though I am not especially religious, I find that a powerful insight. Mortal human beings are simply not capable of that infinite compassion, tolerance, acceptance, which they so like to ascribe to themselves.

Maybe the only possibility lies in accepting that the world is a hard and dangerous place. Many people learn very quickly that one has to fight hard. Others, never. Or very late.

I think that I have long held a belief in the world as an essentially good and cooperative place, so that I could keep up the hope that some day I will find a place where it would accommodate me ideally, and I could be happy. Now I am beginning to feel that this is not going to happen. I see two ways: either I change, or I stay who I am, and accept the faar andct that my quality of life or wealth, or the love I receive, will be limited or even scarce. I am not sure whether I can change, maybe I will remain who I am. But maybe, if I come to a point where I stop asking the question, I will also stop holding on to the beliefs I have of who I am, and develop, without even noticing, other skill sets, and do change.

Sorry, I believe this might sound like an sermon of some sort.

I don't know your story, and so I cannot know how far your fears of being killed or confined are justified. I imagine, if you stay logical, but also calm and controlled, and if you refrain from reacting to the other's lack of logic (or cooperation), you will be reasonably save. And the more accepting you are of your place in life, the more you will become agreeable. And people like agreeable people. Agréable people even find an infinite amount of cooperation. Sometimes it's even enough to be more assertive and seemingly free of inner conflict or fear. People also react to that very favourably. I know that from experience. Not my own, though. I am somebody that is not trusted. Didn't you also mention that some people consider you untrustworthy, or a liar, even?

I have tried everything moral. The only actions I have not tried are those that would make me as bad as my abusers. The goal is to live my life while retaining my soul. It seems that people will only let me do one, not both.

I believe one truly dies when one stops improving themselves. A direct contrast, I guess.

For me, the basic version of that sentiment goes without saying; but I don't see the reason the world needs to be a self-parody, to exaggerate the danger beyond reason.

I have never been allowed to believe such things; the opposite has been made plain to me since day one. And I have spent my life changing who I am, never settling on any aspect, to the point where it has destroyed my body.

I am not in a place to throw stones You are fine to me, at least.

I have had my life threatened to my face many times. My own parents made a point of making sure my life was forfeit to them at any point. Without going into potentially triggering detail, my worst punishments involved being tied up.

That has never worked for me. Human behavior naturally escalates; every antagonist I have encountered has always behaved worse and worse until I had to fight back. They are willing to kill, if necessary.

That is absolutely off the table. The only reason I am in the position I'm in is because of the predations and bad behavior of others. I will never accept the role the human species demands of me as the world's slave. And no human being will accept me as anything above rock bottom - not a person, not even a valued object. I will never accept humanity's condemnation; to do so would be rewarding their bad behavior. Punishing that bad behavior must come ahead of everything, including my life.

If the price of being tolerated is my very will, then I will remain hated - but what does that say of the human species that they demand such a high price for tolerance?

Not from me they don't. Every failure of obedience without question or hesitation I express enrages all witnesses. To the species, the only purpose of my existence is to obey. No exceptions.

I am not considered human. I am definitely not considered someone to be taken seriously. No one believes what I say is true.

I do believe what you say is true. This makes me one exception to your rule - which logically renders your general statement untrue, which then means your statement remains true, which means I do believe what you say is true.

I think what you describe is compelling. I like your expressions of pride, which means you have an unbroken spirit.

I share your belief that society is an entity which demands obedience and tries to shape you into a conforming part. I think however that interaction with individuals does not always follow totally predictable patterns.

On the other hand I often get very tired waiting for the exception to rules partly opaque to me. (This statement makes questionable sense.) What I mean is there nearly always comes, ore maybe there comes totally and logically always a point, where obedience to partly unclear rules seems to be demanded by the situation. Behaviour absolutely without rules is not possible, totally logical behaviour is also not only impossible, but often not wished for, or not demanded by the situation, which is often better described in primal, emotional, non-logical terms.

I am not sure whether I make moral distinctions quite as strongly as you.

I can offer you my friendship, for what it's worth. You can always send me a personal message and we can share information in a less public way, if you wish. I find what you say believable and I also feel you should not feel as objectified, threatened, and lonely as you do.

Pride? You have me confused with someone else - I cannot afford pride.

I must disagree with your sentiment that interactions with individuals do not always follow totally predictable patterns. No matter how I change things up, people behave the same - and it's no surprise, considering how much of human behavior encourages conformity and discourages difference and dissent.

Why do you think logical behavior is impossible? And what situations would not demand logical solutions? For me, if it is not logical, it cannot be a solution.


If you don't make sharp moral distinctions, then how can you call them morals? If your morals aren't sharp and firm, they're only guidelines - which can then be changed at a moment's notice. How can I trust anyone who could change their morals and stab me in the back at any future neuron twitch?

I think that having not such a strong and exclusive formulation of moral values actually prevents me from changing them and stab people in their backs. Often, people also stick to their morals and change their perception in order to stab you. For example, that happened to me, like with the Jews in the third Reich, I was first stripped of my humanity, then neatly disposed of. I think this is also not an unknown experience to you. My opinion is, morals have seldom prevented people from acting immorally. Is that logical? I don't know...

You speak as if you're deliberately trying to look at things incorrectly; like you trying to force your point of view to be skewed and incorrect. I can't help you at this point, and even if you're doing it by accident, your grievously incorrect view is toxic to me.

I'm sorry, that was not intended. I think my formulations tend to be misunderstood. There is something in my reasoning that makes it very often perceived as toxic or abrasive, when actually it was meant to be supportive. No way I meant to try and confound you with skewed perspectives.

Actually I maintain we have certain experiences in common, although mine could look trivial in comparison to yours. Just the tendency of what's going on is similar.

All my life I had that problem until I just stopped telling people things. "Why didn't you say something??" "Would you have listened? NO..........."

Yes, this easily happens when one stops telling people. Contrary to what is often maintained, it doesn't actually make things better. I'd still think there are maybe very interesting linguistic (and emotional) problems involved in maybe changing the h o w of telling people - and even the w h a t.

Medusax: What problem did you have that was solved by not "telling people things"? And how did you stop them from beating it out of you?

I have that problem with people too! We are not alone. I have been observing the people, and so far I have some advice (when the people are not in your favour) :
Less is more. The more you say the less credible and more desperate it can sound. Sometimes I want to give details, but it's the lack of detail that sparks their curiosity to find out more.
Don't try to convince anyone. If they don't believe you then don't waste your time on their gain. It's so hard when someone can think something about you that's so untrue, but they can think what they want! Your silent confidence will soon prove endearing and you can go from preaching to leading.
Also a lot of people like to think they have the answers to everything, even when they don't and no one is asking. Humans want to understand so after a while they stop trying to add to their data and they just start labelling. Consider this as something to do with them and not to do with you so don't take it personally.
I also recommend (a good) counsellor. Or I've heard how to win friends and influence people is a good book for emotional intelligence. But mainly focus on yourself being the source of your happiness and typically when you don't need anyone else, that's when they want to be around you, because a lot of people are sheep to fit in and feel valid, and some just can't see past face value. How they are is their business, focus on bossing yourself

Also consider, and I say this from a place of similar circumstance, that potentially something you're doing is inviting this kind of response from people. Obviously not on purpose. But we spend a lot of time watching others, do we even really understand ourselves? Can you identify your personal triggers that put you into a spiral. Also I think disagreeing with people, there's an art to it. Maybe it can be swayed more to a discussion or a sharing of opinions as oppose to competing for the winning answer. Respect people's opinions even when you don't agree, you can say you see it differently in a polite way, but take that as an opportunity to understand another point of view or just simply accept it. Consider that over time facts can change, and people can change their mind on things

Also in regards to notes with Medusax, I agree don't talk to them and tell them problems. By talking to most people unfortunately the way they respond can make the problems worse. So pick and choose wisely who you chose to confide in, when you chose to speak to them and how you put it across. Have in mind if you want their advice, or if you want to talk and let off steam. Most people automatically offer advice and struggle to do otherwise

Anniken, you are not understanding the context I'm in.


I don't talk to people at all. People attack me before I even say a word. Anything I volunteer will be used against me - it always has anytime I have been tricked into speaking.















I've been to entire collaborative groups of psychotherapists - and they said that my Complex PTSD was treatment-resistant. There won't be any viable treatment invented in my lifetime. Especially considering my primary problem is social, not psychological. No amount of treatment on me will stop others from harming me.


Only if one is completely amoral. Anyone who actually cares about other people and is trying to act in good faith throw that book away when they're done with it. At best, it's only good for spotting bad-faith actors - so it's not entirely a waste.





My therapists have guaranteed me that I am not - in fact, a year of therapy was dedicated precisely to disabuse me of that delusion.







I don't "trigger" like most PTSD sufferers do - that's probably why my diagnosis eluded me for so long. Either I do not get "triggered" or I am permanently in a "triggered" state - there is no change from one state to another.



Indulging in people's delusions is toxic to both them and you. "Respecting" their delusions only indulges them and drives them further into the delusion. The only way to pull someone out of their delusion is with all your might.



I have never witnessed a person change their mind on anything. People would literally rather die than change their minds - that I've witnessed first-hand.


I am trying to extract information from hostile people who have materially contributed to my abuse. Their efforts to "make the problems worse" are obvious and assumed. I am choosing my targets as carefully as I can, but I'm running out of time. I do not "confide" in anyone; I do what it takes to get the information I need. Again, this is a warzone, any every person is either hostile to my continued existence or a target of those hostile people.