The fundamental problem I have with people

The most dominant obstacle I have that prevents people from recognizing my humanity is the fact that people will sooner trust the judgement of strangers rather than my own, simply because the events of my life don't fit into their limited, insulated worldview.

And there is no way to get around that. People won't let go of their false assumptions, because their own identities and understanding of the world are built on those assumptions. There is no way to change the mind of someone so desperate to cling to their false assumptions that they're willing to believe anyone except me to hold onto them.

How am I supposed to survive in an environment that requires human cooperation to survive, yet systematically denies me that cooperation because everyone asserts that I'm a liar, based on provably false premises? I can't convince anyone, because everything I express is assumed to be false. I can't get anyone else to help me, because one of the most fundamental of behaviors is not to assist threats to one's groups, which I am universally perceived to be - or at least that's the only conclusion I can derive from their actions. There is literally no route for me to exit my condition, and that's by design, in the sense that this condition is normally supposed to protect people against actually harmful dangers. It has no way to correct for false positives; from the group's point of view it's better to let the individual die than it is to risk a false negative which may kill the entire group.

I have been trying to solve this problem my entire life, but it seems it deliberately has no solution. Human societies so value their own security that they're willing to discard and let innocent individuals die to ensure the security of the society, no matter the value that individual can give to that society. The value of society's security is, in effect, considered infinite, and anything can be exchanged for it.

Look, we have this discussion before.

I suggest behaving in a way that does not play into other people's reactions or behaviours - whether the source of their own reactions is based on your own regardless of your interpretation of them.

So, just go out on the assumption then that positive behaviour will result in positive reactions - don't give others the opportunity to respond in a negative manner to you. You owe it to yourself. Besides, how difficult would it be to be positive in the first place. Play the higher ground then. I am quite sure if you chose to be positive regardless of the behaviour of those around you theirs will shift accordingly. Be proactive. Just don't even give them the room or opportunity to think negatively about you.

This doesn't even parse into a concept I understand.

I absolutely cannot act according to anything except pre-established fact. To do anything else is a moral crime. Anything that is not already proven true must be considered false until it is proven true. If I act according to the false I become the very monster I am accused of being. Acting according to the false justifies every act of abuse I have received.

My bullies act on false information. If I also act according to false information, I become no better than them.

People don't need me to "give them the opportunity" - that opportunity always exists and has no connection to me.

Again, acting according to the false is a moral crime. There is literally no punishment too severe for those who commit such a crime.

I have done this before, and they absolutely did not shift. That is precisely why it is now proven false, and I can no longer act in that manner.

I cannot control or even influence their thoughts. They actively fight against every attempt I make to influence them. They would suffer any punishment rather that allow me to change their minds.

I do not understand why you post these controversial threads and when someone answers you pick apart what they say and spew the same excuses about why you are right and the world and everyone else is wrong and are attempting to ruin your life. Fine. You're right.

what exactly is it that you want or need? do you want someone to answer & say the world is indeed out to screw you? I read these complex posts and they leave me exasperated. it seems that no one here can offer you what you need or heart what you need and you can't hear what they are saying...so again what is it exactly do you want people here to say to you?

You mentioned that people think you're a "monster" TheUrOther. I don't think you're a monster. There are several folks on PC who reached out to help you; they obviously don't think you're a monster either. The fact that you continue to post on PC suggests that you have at least a glimmer of hope that some humans are decent.

resurgam:

What I need is for people to treat me as an equal, not as some scary "other" that they refuse interact with on fair and equal terms. I need to be a member of a social group so that I can properly interact with society. I need to not be ostracized, abused, and slandered.

The very first step to that is for people to give me the faith that they demand of me and believe what I tell them about my life. No one believes what I say because they've never experienced anything like what I've experienced, despite what I've experienced being directly caused by what other people do.

Ultimately what I am looking for is a way to break through other people's prejudice and get them to see the real me, not the straw man they created before they even met me. I want people to ignore what society tells them to think about me and for them to think for themselves.

SilverTrees:

It is highly unlikely that you fully think of me as an equal human being. Even if you did, you would be so ostracized in doing so that you would be unable to affect society in a way that would help. Ultimately, it is the change in humanity's minds that I seek.

People who reach out to me do not do so to help me; they do so to call me a liar and gain social status. I have been fooled too many times in the past to ever believe such transparent attempts now. Nothing a human being can say will convince me that they're truthful; only non-verbal actions will convince me. As such, it is far too late for anyone to convince me that they're genuine - that time ended when I became a legal adult. Think of it this way - why would people wait forty years, then start treating me as an equal? It doesn't make sense; the more sensical explanation is that they're continuing their bad behavior.


I do have a "glimmer" of hope that I will be able to find people who will not vilify me, but every person I meet dims that hope. It is human nature to harm and reject those outside the "tribe", and I am outside all tribes. Those are simply the inalienable facts.

The very first step to that is for people to give me the faith that they demand of me and believe what I tell them about my life
You told me to believe you so I believe you. You can take that as is. I will take your posts at face value.

Ultimately what I am looking for is a way to break through other people's prejudice and get them to see the real me,
Please let us know the real you...at your own comfort level. Share about yourself. Nothing that feels unsafe to you. So far, you have shared your struggle and your views on humanity...will you share other aspects of you?
What do you enjoy? What are your interests?

It is highly unlikely that you fully think of me as an equal human being.
For me, it is a fact of life that you are equal to me because we are both human. We are the very same species. I am no better or less than anyone else. Neither are you. That's my world view. For me, it's like 2+2=4. Sincerely.

I do have a "glimmer" of hope that I will be able to find people who will not vilify me, but every person I meet dims that hope. It is human nature to harm and reject those outside the "tribe", and I am outside all tribes. Those are simply the inalienable facts.
I am not going to vilify you. And I believe that at the very least a few other folks on PC will not vilify you either.

I agree with you about tribalism. It is a very real and dangerous problem among humans. All we have to do is turn on the news to see it, right? The right versus the left, white versus black, poor versus rich, men versus women, one nation versus another. It is indeed everywhere BUT there are always individuals. I think that is what will help you. You look at the big picture. Nothing wrong with that. But what if you try looking at the smaller picture. For example, instead of focusing on humanity at large, just focus on one interaction at a time. This thread for example. There was some tension yes because I think some folks are frustrated when you seem to want help but reject it at the same time. I'm not saying you try to do that, but it can come across that way. Tension aside, there are folks writing to you because they care. They have no other reason to do so. They could ignore your posts and write to someone else or log off. But they are taking time to reach out to you.

I've been an outsider my whole life TheUrOther. I have no idea what it feels like to be part of a tribe. So I stopped trying. I focus on myself and one interaction at a time. And I have honestly met some decent and kind folks along the way. I remind myself of that often. Think smaller picture. I think you will find some peace there.

After I posted that, I was thinking perhaps I went the wrong way round. I haven't even introduced myself to you or shared about myself. Shall I do that TheUrOther? Maybe we can start slowly from there and if you feel like sharing about yourself, you can jump in. Just let me know. I have one interest which a lot of people think is really weird....would you like to "hear" about it?

That's the thing - because I have had to spend my entire life defending myself, there is no other aspect of me; I could never afford to develop one. The war is all I know. I enjoy nothing and I have no interests. Survival takes everything out of me. And I'm failing at that despite my efforts.


I must fervently disagree. Human beings are social beings; what makes them human is their connections to others, to the point that the influence of other people on one's own psyche is greater than one's own influence. This is hard for people to see, because most people have been around others all their lives - at least their families, if not friends and acquaintances. They don't know what true individuality - true social isolation - is. Your situation may look "individual" to you, but it pales in comparison to someone who as been socioeconomically starved their entire life. Most people simply don't have the perspective necessary to understand this, and the people who do are mostly too broken by it to express it.


That would make me too inefficient; I cannot afford the resultant loss of resources. Not to mention I would be vulnerable to any predator outside that view.



I think you say this from a lack of experience with truly cruel people - or at least I hope that's the case; your life is better without that experience. But it does mean you will never understand why some people prey on others, and how some will pretend to "care" in order to latch onto prey. Predators must be expert social camouflagers - they must hide their true feelings while baiting their prey. An honest predator is too easily caught. The truly successful predators are indistinguishable from normal people - even to other predators - so we have no hope of telling them apart.



Then I guess the questions I have are: How often are you attacked by others, and how do you handle those attacks?

There are cruel and dangerous or plain unkind people out there. But not all. The trick is to try stay away from them. Of course if possible. Sometimes ones career choice makes you to stay around dangerous people or you can’t move, but other than that try your best to stir away.

I personally was assaulted more than once (lived in a bad area and had no choice to move). Luckily due to different circumstances, my own creative approach to escape and sheer luck I am here alive and well. I make an effort to live in areas where I could have a lower chance of being attacked. Sure it eats up my finances always living in certain areas but I prefer to be safe.

Good questions. Yes, TheUrOther. I have experienced cruelty in my own life. My father was a sadistic person. So was my ex-husband. Since moving far away from both, I have made it my mission to live a peaceful life. I look for the light in the world. I try to share my own light with others. I have met some wonderful people along the way...both at PC and in the offline world.

You asked how often I am attacked. Would you tell me how you are defining "attack?" May seem like an odd question but different humans define it in different ways in my experience. Could you give very specific examples of "attacks" as you perceive them?

One thing I will respectfully ask of you TheUrOther when we communicate....it is absolutely fine if you disagree with me about the world or yourself but please do not make assumptions about me or my experience. You don't know me any better than I know you. You said you want people to believe you. Understandable. I appreciate when people believe me too. Sometimes you write things which feel invalidating to me. I point it out not to argue with you but to mention that it's not helpful when we exchange ideas....creates a barrier. Does that make sense? For example, you said I speak as someone who has not known cruelty but I experienced abuse in childhood and adulthood. I live with PTSD. You don't know other people's histories, just as I don't know yours. Hope that makes sense. It is very important not to make assumptions about others or to negate their feelings and experiences.

SilverTrees:
Clearly defining an "attack" is somewhat difficult, as every interaction has strong potential to develop into an attack. Human behavior has a natural tendency to escalate. Simple questions quickly move into an interrogation, which will devolve into people yelling at me if I don't answer well enough - and that can easily lead to violence.

I consider any contact not expressly requested - made by me toward others or by others toward me - trespass, no different had someone marched on someone else's front lawn. No one has ever had a reason to contact me that wasn't ultimately a maneuver to harm or harass me in some way. I would not necessarily consider trespass an attack, per se, but few trespasses end peacefully. I would have to say anyone who persists in the trespass would be considered attacking.

I cannot give you specific examples as my brain never remembers specifics. I'm sorry.

Do you feel as though I have been trespassing?

No; participating in a forum implies inviting interaction. I'm mostly concerned with having my train of thought interrupted; here, visiting the forum is my train of thought. Also, I have time here to construct my words; I do not have such time face-to-face.

It takes practice. Conversationality is a skill.

That you see someone coming up and talking to you as a "trespass" is concerning. That you fail to see how this negatively affects your interpersonal relationships is even more concerning.

I think a lot of members can relate to that UrOther. When I joined this site I was struggling so badly with PTSD and when I wrote posts it actually took a lot of effort for me to do so. I was struggling to function IRL badly and I could not understand why either. Writing something was a lot of effort, I was stuck in hyper vigilance and struggled with racing thoughts. It definitely showed in my writing with missing words (I had to reread everything I wrote and find the missing words before I could finally post anything)and I was repeating things not even realizing it (Often did not always notice that right away either). It was often harder interacting with someone in person too, I could not articulate all that I was experiencing and I was so sensitive which is not like me.

When the body is stuck in anticipation of being attacked, it's extremely hard for the frontal lobe and executive part of the brain to function normally. PTSD is an anxiety disorder but it's way worse than anxiety. Some people experience PTSD worse than others too.

I think what you need most right now is to be able to compose and have that respected. It's extremely hard to explain that to others so it's good that you found a way to do that.

Good point @openeyes about differing levels of PTSD. Based on my chats with others and truth-sharing, I don't think mine is nearly as severe as the level some other folks experience. Mine also waxes and wanes. I don't know if that's the case for a lot of people? It has become more tolerable over time. I am at the point now where I can step outside of it at times when I really need to. Therapy helped a lot. Taking ownership of the problem is very important....otherwise it has the potential to rule over a person's life.

I am thinking that UrOther not even being able to discuss episodic must mean there is so much there he is reactive to a lot of things. Just composing his thoughts in writing like this for him IS a big deal. That's why he is so reactive, we must recognize this about him.

What does it mean to "discuss episodic" OpenEyes? Is that a psych term? It is unfamiliar to me.