advertisement
Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Anonymous44076
Guest
Anonymous44076 has no updates. Edit
 
Posts: n/a
Question Jun 19, 2019 at 02:52 PM
  #1
There is a lot of research indicating that humans are inherently social creatures and require regular face to face social contact in order to thrive. Premature babies, for example, have better outcomes if they experience at least some physical touch in the NICU.

I am wondering if you think there is a minimum number of close relationships required in order to feel connected and well? I knew someone who used to say all you need is one good friend. Personally, I don't agree with that. I'd say that's not enough plus it would likely put a lot of pressure on the one and only friend.

I am referring only to offline friendships here. People can have 100 Facebook "friends" and easily feel completely alone and disconnected. I would include a significant other among "close relationships" though it could of course include friends and relatives.

What do you think?
  Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Hugs from:
Calypso46, DazedandConfused254, MickeyCheeky
 
Thanks for this!
Bill3, DazedandConfused254, MickeyCheeky

advertisement
Anonymous43089
Guest
Anonymous43089 has no updates. Edit
 
Posts: n/a
Default Jun 19, 2019 at 05:00 PM
  #2
This is a question that has amused philosophers and psychologists for centuries. Some models assert that society is merely the collected sum of individuals, whereas others would argue that the individual's identity develops alongside and with reference to other individuals. You seem to be in favor of the latter, that one needs external relationships in order to develop as an individual.

So your question is "how many?" In the end, that's going to depend largely on each person's specific needs. I'll be on the extreme end of that spectrum, as I can go several weeks without any sort of human contact and be relatively fine, so long as I'm not bored, and forming a meaningful bond is damn near impossible. On the other end of the spectrum, you'll likely find people who'll show signs of depression in a matter of days if left in complete isolation.

Regardless, I would argue that quality is far more important than quantity, and that a couple of close relationships should suffice. I would even argue further that, if someone needs recognition from a great number of people in order to feel happy, they're likely missing the point.
  Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Hugs from:
Anonymous44076
 
Thanks for this!
Iloivar
Innerzone
Wise Elder
 
Innerzone's Avatar
Innerzone FML
 
Member Since: Nov 2009
Location: NW US
Posts: 9,383
10 yr Member
31.3k hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default Jun 19, 2019 at 05:15 PM
  #3
No idea. I'm a person of acquaintances. I have a hard time forming close relationships. Only 2 in the last decade really. One died and the other I broke up with. I DO have people that care about me (housemates) though, and that is nice. They are good people. I'd say we're getting close, but I tend to hold a lot back (Like my bp diagnosis. No way!) which may well be why I have trouble getting close. Oh, I am close to my sister though (we are thousands of miles apart, but reconnected a number of years ago).

But I do pretty much everything alone, which I'm fine with (shopping, eating out, whatever). I have joined 3 MeetUps (1 disbanded due to fees, but members have stayed in contact), which is wildly sociable for me. In fact it's my entire social life, lol.

So as for a number....????? I think about 5 would be excellent. Wouldn't turn my nose up on even one though.

__________________
*********
Mr. Robot
Minimum number of close relationships?
Makes me sick to the heart, Oh I feel so tired. And the way the rain comes down hard, that's how I feel inside.
--The Cure
Innerzone is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Hugs from:
Anonymous44076
Anonymous44076
Guest
Anonymous44076 has no updates. Edit
 
Posts: n/a
Default Jun 19, 2019 at 05:19 PM
  #4
@theoretical
if someone needs recognition from a great number of people in order to feel happy, they're likely missing the point.

I agree 100%

others would argue that the individual's identity develops alongside and with reference to other individuals. You seem to be in favor of the latter, that one needs external relationships in order to develop as an individual.

I was not actually suggesting this. I've lived a very different life from a lot of people. I've been on my own a lot and dealt with life's hurdles independently. Including in a foreign country. I have developed as an individual without frequent and close contact with others. A doctor who I shared my story with was amazed by what I've survived without a support network. But it wasn't very happy or comfortable for me if that makes sense. Though I am capable of creating happiness on my own. I go out alone a lot. It doesn't make me uncomfortable. I was talking more about enjoying life in a different way via closeness with others. I think it would be lovely to have a few folks or more to see regularly and connect with. Lovely but not essential....my life thus far was proof of that. Plenty of people are alone and still have distinctive characters and a lot to offer society. Do i sound contradictory? Unintended.
  Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Thanks for this!
Chyialee
Anonymous44076
Guest
Anonymous44076 has no updates. Edit
 
Posts: n/a
Default Jun 19, 2019 at 05:31 PM
  #5
@Innerzone
I'm a person of acquaintances.

That's how I would describe myself for much of my life. I do have a significant other who is kind and loving. But I often think some close friendships (the lasting type) would be really nice. Research indicates that people tend to have better health when they have a good strong support network. Though I'm not trying to generalize to every single human. We're all different. We all have unique needs and preferences.
  Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Hugs from:
Innerzone
Anonymous43089
Guest
Anonymous43089 has no updates. Edit
 
Posts: n/a
Default Jun 19, 2019 at 05:44 PM
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTrees View Post
I've survived without a support network. But it wasn't very happy or comfortable for me if that makes sense. Though I am capable of creating happiness on my own. I go out alone a lot. It doesn't make me uncomfortable.
I should've been more clear - I was responding to your first paragraph: "...humans are inherently social creatures and require regular face to face social contact in order to thrive." I wasn't implying that close relationships are a basic necessity, but that social contact is necessary when forming an identity. Even if you're handling life's struggles independently, you're still doing so within the context of a broader society. You've formed your identity as someone who is independent by reference to others who are not.

This may get complicated, and I have to leave soon, but I'll try to elaborate further when I get a chance.
  Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Anonymous44076
Guest
Anonymous44076 has no updates. Edit
 
Posts: n/a
Default Jun 19, 2019 at 05:47 PM
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by theoretical View Post
I should've been more clear - I was responding to your first paragraph: "...humans are inherently social creatures and require regular face to face social contact in order to thrive." I wasn't implying that close relationships are a basic necessity, but that social contact is necessary when forming an identity. Even if you're handling life's struggles independently, you're still doing so within the context of a broader society. You've formed your identity as someone who is independent by reference to others who are not.

This may get complicated, and I have to leave soon, but I'll try to elaborate further when I get a chance.
Thank you for this! It's a really interesting topic for me. As is human intimacy (not in the sexual sense)...there's a great thread about that. Feel free to add more at your own pace. You can add the mention fxn to flag me even if it's weeks from now.
  Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Anonymous44076
Guest
Anonymous44076 has no updates. Edit
 
Posts: n/a
Default Jun 19, 2019 at 05:48 PM
  #8
Thank you both for your insights. It's a really interesting topic.
  Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Anonymous43089
Guest
Anonymous43089 has no updates. Edit
 
Posts: n/a
Default Jun 20, 2019 at 11:22 AM
  #9
@SilverTrees

I'm rolling on 3 hours of sleep and a cup of coffee, so this may be unintelligible. Anyway...

Quote:
...humans are inherently social creatures and require regular face to face social contact in order to thrive.
Yes*, and further, we need recognition from others in order to become aware of our Self, and only then can we begin to properly form our Identity. These things, naturally, are integral to our happiness and psychological well-being.

Firstly, we must understand how we become aware of our Self. Self-awareness is an active, inter-subjective exercise. If we are aware of an object, be that object a pencil or a person**, then it must follow that we are aware of ourselves as thinking subjects, distinct from the object we're perceiving. Then we, as thinking subjects, can also surmise that we're objects to other thinking subjects. We become aware of another's awareness of us, and then we can begin to see ourselves through their perception. We get feedback, in other words. Where we are distinct from or similar to other thinking subjects will shape our Identity.

An illustration featuring Wonder Woman: Diana was created and raised on an Amazonian island and had no contact with either humans or male beings of any kind***. Considering this, she understood herself only with reference to other Amazonians and didn't have any real concept of womanhood, not until she met a human man. Once she met Steve, her identity as a woman and a goddess became more defined because it was contrasted against someone who was neither a woman nor a deity (although, she did understand to some extent that she was different from other Amazonians). As she continued to interact with the Other (the men's world, human societies, whatever) her Identity as an Amazonian goddess became more and more defined.

Hegel argues that this interaction with the Other necessarily brings tension, and he characterizes it as a struggle between two opposing forces. We seek recognition from the Other so that we can better understand ourselves. But the conflict arises because both us thinking subjects are seeking recognition from each other. Hegel says that, inevitably, a stronger thinking subject will dominate a weaker one, thereby resulting in the Master-slave relationship. Such a pronounced imbalance is doomed to fail; neither party will get the recognition they seek, and each will resent the other party for it.

Consider the narcissistic abuser (Narc) and his victim (Vic). Narc wants, nay - DEMANDS - recognition from other people in an attempt to stabilize his fragile sense of self. He demands this often through violence, threats of violence or manipulation. The problem is three-fold:

1. Like Hegel states, Narc will never fully accept the recognition of Vic because Narc doesn't fully recognize Vic's humanity, and therefore doesn't really value Vic's opinion. Narcissists will only feel satisfied by another's recognition if that Other is someone they perceive as "equal" to them.

2. The image that he projects to Vic isn't real, and therefore the image of himself that's reflected back to him isn't real. He isn't getting recognition of himself, but a false identity which he himself created. It's basically a mastubatory exercise which serves only to feed one's own ego and does nothing to actually develop a stable identity.

3. Vic submits out of fear, so whatever recognition that Vic gives him likely isn't genuine. Even if it is, Narc will never know for certain if Vic is giving him a genuine compliment or merely trying to placate him out of fear of punishment.

Consequently, Narc will never feel truly fulfilled by any recognition given by Vic, and, because narcissists are not known for their self-awareness, will likely begin to resent Vic for his own unhappiness. Likewise, Vic will never receive the recognition she needs from Narc because Narc refuses to see her as fully human. What Narc fails to realize is that the problem lies with him. He cannot receive the recognition he needs unless he also recognizes the humanity in Vic, allows Vic to voice her opinions openly and without fear of reprisal, and values those opinions. He won't do this, of course, because he'd rather be comforted by a fantasy of his own creation than face the truth.

I absolutely believe this is a real dynamic which plays out in a lot of relationships, particularly in those where there's a stark power imbalance. And the Narc-Vic relationship is a perfect illustration of why we need recognition in order to form Identity. While narcissists present an image of a mature adult, if you dare get close enough to one, you'll find that their "real self," however little there is that's real, is shockingly immature. Why? Because they never present their "real self" long enough for it to be recognized by another. Consequently, it never develops.

However, I disagree with Hegel somewhat that seeking recognition will inevitably result in a struggle between two thinking subjects demanding recognition from each other. We can, so to speak, cut the foreplay and simply recognize the humanity in the Other from the get-go. Of course, Hegel may have been a brilliant philosopher, but he was still an affluent white dude living in the very un-egalitarian times of the early 19th century, and the "thinkers" of that time period often had a fear of the Other which bordered on pathological, but I digress.

Where was I going with this? Oh right ... Back to the subject of the thread.

CLOSE RELATIONSHIPS. Are they important? How many do we need? Yes, and I don't know.

It isn't necessarily that we seek "close relationships," but rather that we seek recognition from others.**** This is evident in the Narc/Vic relationship, which is close, but neither party is receiving the recognition they need to be truly fulfilled. We're seeking to have our humanity acknowledged, our thoughts valued, etc., and when we fail to receive that, it's detrimental to our psychological well-being and impedes our self-growth.

While we can get recognition from acquaintances, colleagues, or even complete strangers, it's only those closest to us who see us at our most honest, who see every aspect of us, both our strengths and weaknesses, and who we trust to offer the most honest opinion. It's in our closest relationships where we can get the most genuine recognition and the most complete reflection of our Self.

That being said, I think you can develop an Identity without close relationships, but it likely won't be as strong because no one gets to see you completely.


*In this section, I'm referring to human contact in general, not close relationships.

**"Person as object" - I mean only to distinguish the person perceiving and the person being perceived, not implying any sort of negative connotation, or "reducing" a person to an object.

***I've only seen the movie, so I apologize in advance if I've confused details of Wonder Woman's backstory.

****Disclaimer: As I am a psychopath, it may be that normal people seek close relationships for other additional reasons of which I'm not aware. Like emotions, or whatever. Nevertheless, recognition is among those major human needs, and I think you'd all be terribly unhappy in a close relationship where you're not being recognized or valued.

Last edited by Anonymous43089; Jun 20, 2019 at 11:40 AM..
  Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Thanks for this!
Open Eyes
Misery Business
Grand Member
Misery Business has no updates.
 
Member Since: Jun 2019
Location: USA
Posts: 750
3 yr Member
240 hugs
given
Default Jun 20, 2019 at 11:43 AM
  #10
With what I have been through it is hard for me to trust people. So it does take a lot for me to have a close in person friendship with someone. I consider 2 girls who were my best friends before I had what happen to me at the age of 13 and one of which was a friend since I was 5 are my very close friends. Those two friends are there for me at any time of day no matter what. They just listen and don't even have to say a thing. They let me cry on there shoulders and give me hugs. Other than my family and my therapist and school counselor those two are the only ones I trust with physical contact such as hugs and pats on the back and other touch of a non sexual nature of course.

I do not use Social Media mostly due to the situation I was in and I feel it would totally overwhelm me. I have had photos of me taken by my friends using Snapchat which I really don't get the purpose of it especially the part of everyone knowing your location or area you are in which is scary to me after what I have been through in the past.

In the end though I if I go through life with my two girlfriends I will be extremely happy.
Misery Business is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Hugs from:
Anonymous44076, Innerzone
Anonymous44076
Guest
Anonymous44076 has no updates. Edit
 
Posts: n/a
Default Jun 20, 2019 at 12:23 PM
  #11
@theoretical
Thank you very much for sharing your insight. I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts; you are a deep thinker. I will likely read this post several more times and let your ideas simmer in my mind. I may add later but would like to share a few reactions right away.

While narcissists present an image of a mature adult, if you dare get close enough to one, you'll find that their "real self," however little there is that's real, is shockingly immature. Why? Because they never present their "real self" long enough for it to be recognized by another. Consequently, it never develops.
Prior to reading your message, I was aware of the immaturity and lack of a well-developed Self (though narcissists are often initially misunderstood as very confident and self-assured). But you took this to another level by pointing out they never present their "real self" long enough for it to be recognized by another. Consequently, it never develops This is a very astute point.
You reminded me of my ex-husband. He used to get very irritated because his young nieces always seemed more attached to me when they visited and often ignored him...not in a rude way...they just didn't gravitate toward him whereas he described them as "hanging on" me. Anyway, I don't know if you've noticed but children have much better BS detectors than most adults. In my experience, they see through pretense and facade very easily....they are naturally drawn toward authenticity. So, looking back I think they were drawn to me because I was always real with them....just myself (plus I was kind to them of course) whereas he (took me a while to realize) was not comfortable in his own skin. I think they picked up on that. Later, one niece was reflecting on her uncle to me after I had left him: "He's like a chameleon. Have you noticed? He used to love cats now he hates cats and loves dogs. It doesn't make much sense. Like he's just different things to different people." Talk about OUT OF THE MOUTHS OF BABES!

It isn't necessarily that we seek "close relationships," but rather that we seek recognition from others.**** This is evident in the Narc/Vic relationship, which is close, but neither party is receiving the recognition they need to be truly fulfilled. We're seeking to have our humanity acknowledged, our thoughts valued, etc., and when we fail to receive that, it's detrimental to our psychological well-being and impedes our self-growth.
I'm going to give this more thought.

While we can get recognition from acquaintances, colleagues, or even complete strangers, it's only those closest to us who see us at our most honest, who see every aspect of us, both our strengths and weaknesses, and who we trust to offer the most honest opinion. It's in our closest relationships where we can get the most genuine recognition and the most complete reflection of our Self.
I only partially agree with this. Yes, people closest to us will know us better in a sense but I've also seen how closeness can create blindspots. People often overlook or are completely oblivious to certain traits of a close partner. For example, a wife who had no idea her husband was unfaithful for over a year. Could be denial in some cases but I think there are times when people closest to someone are actually LESS aware of their weaknesses than those with more distance. Similarly, we often don't appreciate those closest to us as much as we should....we take their strengths for granted or even play out our own frustrations with a partner because they are closest.

I don't think it is possible for a human to ever completely know"every aspect" of another human....the Self that others recognize is at best what we transmit to the outer world. But we each have a private inner world. Humans still have thoughts and feelings which they keep to themselves. I discussed this with a psychologist once. She agreed: "You can lie in bed next to someone every night and share a home and life with them but you will never actually know what's going on in their mind....you will never know them completely." Even in the best relationships, we are always holding something back. Or, I could argue that the best relationships are ABLE to occur because each partner holds something back....darker thoughts, past secrets etc.

That may sound cynical but I don't mean it that way at all. The notion that we partner with someone by completely giving up everything about ourselves....privacy, boundaries etc is not a healthy one. Young folks often try this and the relationships tends to burn out very quickly. Living in each other's pockets so to speak....becoming enmeshed.....when there is no separateness and little held back.....the Self becomes smothered and resentful. The Self by its very nature cannot be fully split or shared with another. For example, does a partner really want to know about your previous sexual relationships? Do they need to know all the details? Likely not.

The healthiest lasting relationships are when one fully developed Self meets another fully developed separate Self and they share a life via attention and work on the YOU the ME and the WE. When any of the three aspects is ignored or denied or abused, misery ensues. If you look around at most romantic relationships (even happens with some family members or friends) the most common and detrimental mistake occurring is zero attention to the YOU and the ME....most young people grow up thinking that you get married and become a WE and there is no more YOU and no more ME. This is at the root of all marriage problems and divorce.

I know three couples who never do anything separately....other than their day jobs. Every social event is shared. There are no guys' nights etc. This has actually begun to alienate some of their other friends....single and partnered...because they don't ever get to spend time with just the one partner....or just the guys etc. Those three couples think that's what marriage is supposed to be....being enmeshed....and I would predict that all three will be divorced or dealing with extramarital affairs within ten years. I'd gladly be wrong but when you squash your own self, you cannot maintain that and something has got to give.

But the movies and songs continue
to promote flawed notions of "You complete me" and "I cannot live without you" ...."I did not exist until I met you"...."I only became a real person when I met you....your love has made me real!" Those are delusions. Another human cannot complete the Self for someone. People try, all the time, and wind up miserable (and often abused or abusing). My brother is one of the most miserable humans I have ever known and yet he firmly believes: "If I only met the right woman, I KNOW I would be happy!" Nope brother. Sorry. No woman on earth can delete your negative thoughts about yourself or create self-esteem for you. That is why all of his relationships end in misery.

That being said, I think you can develop an Identity without close relationships, but it likely won't be as strong because no one gets to see you completely.
I will give this more thought.

Last edited by Anonymous44076; Jun 20, 2019 at 12:44 PM..
  Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Thanks for this!
Open Eyes
Open Eyes
Legendary Wise Elder
 
Open Eyes's Avatar
Open Eyes Not a Unicorn, just another horse
 
Member Since: Mar 2011
Location: Northeast USA
Posts: 23,093 (SuperPoster!)
10 yr Member
21.3k hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default Jun 20, 2019 at 12:31 PM
  #12
Quote:
Yes*, and further, we need recognition from others in order to become aware of our Self, and only then can we begin to properly form our Identity. These things, naturally, are integral to our happiness and psychological well-being
Recognition from others yet with respect in allowing one to form one's own identity instead of having to fit into a box of what others consider worthy of value and respect. If a child grows up with a narcissistic parent they are expected to be what the narcissist wants instead of experiencing the freedom to develop their own identity. Without even realizing it this individual can think this is normal and end up in a relationship with yet another narcissist that has no ability to respect them as having their own identity but instead live their life around the narcissists needs. The individual unknowingly learns the only way to live is through codependency always putting the needs of others before themselves and never really feeling their own identity. Decisions come hard in that without realizing it the individual never was allowed to have their own opinion or sense of self.

The idea of unconditional love is so far off the individual struggles with feeling safe to just be themselves and have imperfections or that it's ok to like something even if it's not something another person likes.

Last edited by Open Eyes; Jun 20, 2019 at 12:48 PM..
Open Eyes is online now   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Anonymous44076
Guest
Anonymous44076 has no updates. Edit
 
Posts: n/a
Default Jun 20, 2019 at 12:54 PM
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Open Eyes View Post
Recognition from others yet with respect in allowing one to form one's own identity instead of having to fit into a box of what others consider worthy of value and respect. If a child grows up with a narcissistic parent they are expected to be what the narcissist wants instead of experiencing the freedom to develop their own identity. Without even realizing it this individual can think this is normal and end up in a relationship with yet another narcissist that has no ability to respect them as having their own identity but instead live their life around the narcissists needs. The individual unknowingly learns the only way to live is through codependency always putting the needs of others before themselves and never really feeling their own identity. Decisions come hard in that without realizing it the individual never was allowed to have their own opinion or sense of self.
True @openeyes. People need their own space and time to develop a fully capable and healthy Self. I am not clear on the line between allowing that and also enjoying and learning from close relationships.

If I understood Theoretical correctly, they are saying that one cannot fully develop a strong sense of Self without recognition via close relationships. Yet, I know from the marriage and divorce research that it is impossible to have a healthy marriage without first developing your own sense of self, separately from that partner. Trying to develop it with that partner does not work.

But on the extreme, if a young person grows up without ever having ANY close attachments, they likely will not be healthy. I'm just not sure where the line is between the two....the balance. I feel a need to look at some research on identity development and relationships. Children of maladaptive parenting styles often learn to suppress and deny the Self. It does not matter who they meet later or how wonderful they are, if they never have time alone to independently self-reflect and analyze, they will never know their own true self.....they will spend a lifetime suppressing it and partnering with people who dominate them. They may even perceive that as attractive....being told what to do all the time....then the years go by and Self withers or grows very angry.
  Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Thanks for this!
Open Eyes
Anonymous43089
Guest
Anonymous43089 has no updates. Edit
 
Posts: n/a
Default Jun 20, 2019 at 01:02 PM
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTrees View Post
I only partially agree with this. Yes, people closest to us will know us better in a sense but I've also seen how closeness can create blindspots. People often overlook or are completely oblivious to certain traits of a close partner. For example, a wife who had no idea her husband was unfaithful for over a year. Could be denial in some cases but I think there are times when people closest to someone are actually LESS aware of their weaknesses than those with more distance.
Just because two people are married and living together doesn't mean they're close. The Boomer generation taught us that much about marriage. The two in this relationship aren't recognizing each other. This is an example of Hegel's Master/slave dialectic, wherein one party is failing to fully recognize the humanity in the other. In this case, it's the husband who fails to see the wife as an equal and doesn't value her opinion. Consequently, he feels unfulfilled in his marriage, and seeks "fulfillment" elsewhere. Furthermore, he's never going to change this behavior because his wife refuses to see it and won't challenge him on it, therefore he won't grow as a person. She's probably in denial to protect her own sense of happiness. I don't know; it's your hypothetical.

I don't think it is possible for a human to every completely know"every aspect" of another human....the Self that others recognize is at best what we transmit to the outer world.

Sure, but that doesn't really negate the theory.

That may sound cynical but I don't mean it that way at all. The notion that we partner with someone by completely giving up everything about ourselves....privacy, boundaries etc is not a healthy one.

I'm not saying it is healthy, nor am I saying you should reveal every sordid thought you have. But rather, it's important that some people can see the essence of who you are. You don't need to tell someone your entire life's story in excruciating detail for them to get an impression of who you are.

The healthiest lasting relationships are when one fully developed Self meets another fully developed separate Self and they share a life via attention and work on the YOU the ME and the WE.

As developed as one could be, sure, but one requires meeting another Self in order to develop in the first place. One is not simply born fully developed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Open Eyes View Post
Recognition from others yet with respect in allowing one to form one's own identity instead of having to fit into a box of what others consider worthy of value and respect.
Yes, being seen as an autonomous agent is a part of recognition.
  Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Thanks for this!
Open Eyes
Innerzone
Wise Elder
 
Innerzone's Avatar
Innerzone FML
 
Member Since: Nov 2009
Location: NW US
Posts: 9,383
10 yr Member
31.3k hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default Jun 20, 2019 at 01:33 PM
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTrees View Post
But the movies and songs continue
to promote flawed notions of "You complete me" and "I cannot live without you" ...."I did not exist until I met you"...."I only became a real person when I met you....your love has made me real!" Those are delusions. Another human cannot complete the Self for someone. People try, all the time, and wind up miserable (and often abused or abusing). My brother is one of the most miserable humans I have ever known and yet he firmly believes: "If I only met the right woman, I KNOW I would be happy!" Nope brother. Sorry. No woman on earth can delete your negative thoughts about yourself or create self-esteem for you. That is why all of his relationships end in misery.
So true!! Hearing songs like that drives me right up a wall. It's so idiotic! Yet so commonly believed. You hear it constantly! Sorry about your brother. You are spot on.

__________________
*********
Mr. Robot
Minimum number of close relationships?
Makes me sick to the heart, Oh I feel so tired. And the way the rain comes down hard, that's how I feel inside.
--The Cure
Innerzone is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Hugs from:
Anonymous44076
Open Eyes
Legendary Wise Elder
 
Open Eyes's Avatar
Open Eyes Not a Unicorn, just another horse
 
Member Since: Mar 2011
Location: Northeast USA
Posts: 23,093 (SuperPoster!)
10 yr Member
21.3k hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default Jun 20, 2019 at 01:52 PM
  #16
Years ago they wanted to experiment and see what would happen if a child had no nurturing at all. They did this with a monkey as monkeys are very similar in so many ways to humans. They did everything they could do with this baby monkey to remove any kind of nurturing including making the mother it clung to out of metal with no warmth at all. After the monkey had matured they put it in with other monkeys and this poor monkey was terrified and could not socially connect at all. After seeing it was so bad they ended up putting this monkey back in it's own cage to live out it's life alone.

I happened to see that when I was a really young child and have never forgotten it and remember feeling extremely sad for that monkey and it deeply disturbed me.

Also, I have a strong feeling we are never going to rid humanity of classism as if you study primates which we are, the one thing that is consistent is a form of classism or heiarchy. Also, what is present is male dominance as well. That being said, there are also dominant females that group together as well.

We have much to learn yet as we are beginning to discover how human brains vary as well. Dyslexia is nothing new, what IS new is how we have come to recognize it. Also, for whatever is lacked in the Dyslexic mind, it has abilities that can think outside the norm and in that has provided humanity with some interesting discoveries. It is said that Eienstien had dyslexia. I think human beings are also set up to fit best into engaging in warfar as well, while others are driven to explore and thrive best by invesitgating new lands, seas, or whatever lies out there to be discovered.
Open Eyes is online now   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Anonymous44076
Guest
Anonymous44076 has no updates. Edit
 
Posts: n/a
Default Jun 20, 2019 at 01:53 PM
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Innerzone View Post
So true!! Hearing songs like that drives me right up a wall. It's so idiotic! Yet so commonly believed. You hear it constantly! Sorry about your brother. You are spot on.
Thank you @Innerzone. I tried explaining it to my brother and offered research but he declined my offer and I left it at that

What you have highlighted in your post is also a foundation for the delusion that Singletons are "less than" Marrieds. This is very problematic.

Not that all married folks are enmeshed but many are. And many live separate lives under the same roof. Yet marriage, for most, is deemed far superior to a single life. If you're interested on the research, give me a shout. I know of a good speaker on the subject. It's quite fascinating when I gather enough patience not to be irritated by the hostility which often arises against Singletons I made a post a while ago about how I think this trend of marriage as the ultimate goal is actually driven by commercialism. I didn't have any takers but that is my hunch....on the macro level....on the micro level most people are afraid to be alone so the idea of a single life is coupled with fear (or in some cases a sense of shame). We see this often, right? "I know it's a terrible relationship and it's making me ill but I don't want to leave." And I'm not judging here but describing. I have a lot of empathy for people in unhappy relationships. That's why I reply a lot in the relationships section here. I spent quite a few years in a miserable relationship myself....the pain is not unfamiliar to me.
  Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Hugs from:
Innerzone
 
Thanks for this!
Innerzone, Open Eyes
Anonymous44076
Guest
Anonymous44076 has no updates. Edit
 
Posts: n/a
Default Jun 20, 2019 at 01:58 PM
  #18
Great discourse folks! Cheers! Keep firing away at your own comfort level...go in various directions if you like....don't worry about being "off topic." It was a narrow fairly arbitrary question of mine but relates to much deeper themes. That's why it is so interesting.
  Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Thanks for this!
Open Eyes
Anonymous44076
Guest
Anonymous44076 has no updates. Edit
 
Posts: n/a
Default Jun 20, 2019 at 02:01 PM
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Open Eyes View Post
Years ago they wanted to experiment and see what would happen if a child had no nurturing at all. They did this with a monkey as monkeys are very similar in so many ways to humans. They did everything they could do with this baby monkey to remove any kind of nurturing including making the mother it clung to out of metal with no warmth at all. After the monkey had matured they put it in with other monkeys and this poor monkey was terrified and could not socially connect at all. After seeing it was so bad they ended up putting this monkey back in it's own cage to live out it's life alone.

I happened to see that when I was a really young child and have never forgotten it and remember feeling extremely sad for that monkey and it deeply disturbed me.

Also, I have a strong feeling we are never going to rid humanity of classism as if you study primates which we are, the one thing that is consistent is a form of classism or heiarchy. Also, what is present is male dominance as well. That being said, there are also dominant females that group together as well.

We have much to learn yet as we are beginning to discover how human brains vary as well. Dyslexia is nothing new, what IS new is how we have come to recognize it. Also, for whatever is lacked in the Dyslexic mind, it has abilities that can think outside the norm and in that has provided humanity with some interesting discoveries. It is said that Eienstien had dyslexia. I think human beings are also set up to fit best into engaging in warfar as well, while others are driven to explore and thrive best by invesitgating new lands, seas, or whatever lies out there to be discovered.
Classism is just one flavor of tribalism. And as long as there have been humans, there has been tribalism. And there always will be. We just aren't as evolved as we like to think
  Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Thanks for this!
Open Eyes
Open Eyes
Legendary Wise Elder
 
Open Eyes's Avatar
Open Eyes Not a Unicorn, just another horse
 
Member Since: Mar 2011
Location: Northeast USA
Posts: 23,093 (SuperPoster!)
10 yr Member
21.3k hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default Jun 20, 2019 at 02:01 PM
  #20
Marriage and commitment really became desired due to how offspring were able to survive and thrive better if they grew up with parents. We often forget that children often failed to make it to adulthood. That is often why so many ended up having several children as not all their children survived into adulthood. We forget that it was not all that long ago that parents often faced the loss of one or more of their children due to all the diseases and illnesses we now have found vacinations for as well as antibiotics and other medicines that can contribute to a child reaching adulthood. Now what was once common is considered a major tradgedy when someone experiences the loss of a young child.
Open Eyes is online now   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:50 PM.
Powered by vBulletin® — Copyright © 2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.



 

My Support Forums

My Support Forums is the online community that was originally begun as the Psych Central Forums in 2001. It now runs as an independent self-help support group community for mental health, personality, and psychological issues and is overseen by a group of dedicated, caring volunteers from around the world.

 

Helplines and Lifelines

The material on this site is for informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis or treatment provided by a qualified health care provider.

Always consult your doctor or mental health professional before trying anything you read here.