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Default Jun 20, 2019 at 02:17 PM
  #21
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Marriage and commitment really became desired due to how offspring were able to survive and thrive better if they grew up with parents. We often forget that children often failed to make it to adulthood. That is often why so many ended up having several children as not all their children survived into adulthood. We forget that it was not all that long ago that parents often faced the loss of one or more of their children due to all the diseases and illnesses we now have found vacinations for as well as antibiotics and other medicines that can contribute to a child reaching adulthood. Now what was once common is considered a major tradgedy when someone experiences the loss of a young child.
Marriage is different from commitment though, right? You can have both but you don't have to have marriage in order to commit and raise healthy children. In the Netherlands for example, it is more common for couples to cohabitate and raise their children that way....they don't see the point of the document or party. For a long time there were all sorts of notions about why priests cannot marry. Historically it's because the Catholic Church did not want their land entailed away to children of priests if the children did not choose the priesthood. Historically, marriage evolved in order to for people to acquire in-laws....that was a very important source of power back in the day....combining two powerful families.

I'm all for marriage if individuals choose it and want it for themselves. What I disagree with are the myths in society as to why it developed and why it continues to be pushed on young folks ($53 billion industry in the U.S.).

With regard to raising children, marriage remains the "norm" or desirable in many societies but rates of parental child abuse and neglect are still very high.

Are you saying that institutionalized marriage contributed to the development of childhood vaccines @openeyes?
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Question Jun 20, 2019 at 02:47 PM
  #22
@Bill3 do you have any interest in weighing in on human need for close relationships, a preferred number, or how that fosters identity development?
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Default Jun 20, 2019 at 03:48 PM
  #23
Hi SilverTrees!

I am very much grateful that you asked this question, as it reminds me that I am not alone in my bewilderment over how much one needs to socialize to be happy. There is a concept that has been illustrated by Malcolm Gladwell in his signature work "The Tipping Point", that describes the maximum number of relationships that one person can handle before becoming emotionally and relationally stretched. This limit was originally devised by the British psychologist, Robin Dunbar in 1992, in conclusion to a study conducted through varying the size of non-human primate communities. It was determined that the maximum number of relationships that one can handle at a single point in time is 150. There is some variation between 100 and 250, but 150 is the most commonly accepted "middle ground", as well as the number orignally discovered by Dunbar. In our culture, known for desiring busyness and constant connection, someone may wonder "what is the scale of each relationship in this 150-person community?" In Medium's link for this article (see at the end of this post), the author does a fine job providing an overview of the study, breaking down the number into 4 components: 5 intimate friendships (possibly the most important closer friendships?), 15 good friends, 50 total friends (5 intimate, 15 good friends, therefore leaving 30 casual friends), and 150 acquaintances. Both Dunbar and Medium have used examples of this concept at work, the earliest of which was found in Neolithic time period, where 150 was the average size of a farming community before a split to smaller communities was warranted. The 120-150 people found in most army troop was a social standard set by soldiers in the days of the Roman Empire. In "Tipping Point", a modern example takes the concept even further to explain the recent success of Gore-Tex, a manufacturer of fabrics that repel moisture, making clothes and camping items more waterproof and hiking boots slip-resistant. What explains the success of the company's product? Keeping the community small. The parent manufacturer of the product, WL Gore and Associates is very selective on who enters the Gore-Tex division to prevent over-population of workers, thus creating a personable work environment. The average size of the Gore-Tex division is close to Dunbar's Number, which is a small enough number that nametags are not even necessary!

This may be a very analytical approach to social relationships, but I feel very passionate about Dunbar and his findings. In a world that often seems to pressure people to socialize or form large networks, this has been a very encouraging finding, and hope that you feel the same way too.

Dunbar’s number — the law of 150 – Esther Sugihto – Medium

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Default Jun 20, 2019 at 04:14 PM
  #24
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Marriage is different from commitment though, right? You can have both but you don't have to have marriage in order to commit and raise healthy children. In the Netherlands for example, it is more common for couples to cohabitate and raise their children that way....they don't see the point of the document or party. For a long time there were all sorts of notions about why priests cannot marry. Historically it's because the Catholic Church did not want their land entailed away to children of priests if the children did not choose the priesthood. Historically, marriage evolved in order to for people to acquire in-laws....that was a very important source of power back in the day....combining two powerful families.

I'm all for marriage if individuals choose it and want it for themselves. What I disagree with are the myths in society as to why it developed and why it continues to be pushed on young folks ($53 billion industry in the U.S.).

With regard to raising children, marriage remains the "norm" or desirable in many societies but rates of parental child abuse and neglect are still very high.

Are you saying that institutionalized marriage contributed to the development of childhood vaccines @openeyes?
No, not saying that institutionalized marriage contributed to the development of childhood vaccines.

Marriage and family was important for different reasons in human history, many early settlements needed families to work together on farms. Many farms stayed in famiies for generations too. Many businesses were family owned and run too.
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Default Jun 20, 2019 at 07:54 PM
  #25
Look at my late father. He had one person he was close to—my mother. But he was enmeshed in society. Congenial with co-workers, coached and played baseball, fixed stuff for people in the neighborhood, friendly with staff at McDonalds etc., so he had a lot of lesser connections and he was at peace.

But when my mother died he lost his purpose for living. He was fine with one close friend, given his other connections, but not fine with zero and no purpose.

I like this (approximate) quote from Nietzsche: “If a person has a Why, they can cope with almost any How.”
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Default Jun 20, 2019 at 09:27 PM
  #26
I want to reply to all of you properly later. I want to say that you have given me much to think about...I mean that as a compliment!

Bill, that Nietzsche quote just blew me away. As well as your story about your father. Wow. I am so grateful for you PC folks and your insight. Truly.
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Default Jun 21, 2019 at 03:18 PM
  #27
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Hi SilverTrees!
In a world that often seems to pressure people to socialize or form large networks...
Does it? In what way? I haven't gotten that impression, at least not with close relationships.

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But when my mother died he lost his purpose for living. He was fine with one close friend, given his other connections, but not fine with zero and no purpose.

I like this (approximate) quote from Nietzsche: “If a person has a Why, they can cope with almost any How.”
This may be a silly reference after you've just quoted Nietzsche, but I'm reminded of a Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode that was really insightful.

Buffy nearly dies in a fight with a vampire and begins to have thoughts about her own mortality, so she asks Spike about his fights with other slayers because he's killed two of them.

Spike tells her that it wasn't a lack of skill or a failure in technique which led to their deaths. He didn't exploit a weakness in their attack, but rather, they had lost the will to live. Buffy hadn't (yet) because she had ties to the world - her mom, sister, and friends. Death chases us all, and eventually, all of us will forget the reason we keep running. Eventually, we all stop.

Maybe it isn't always relationships which give us purpose, but I think it often is.

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I want to reply to all of you properly later. I want to say that you have given me much to think about...I mean that as a compliment!
You've opened Pandora's Box, Silver.
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Default Jun 21, 2019 at 04:14 PM
  #28
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You've opened Pandora's Box, Silver.
I think Silver can take from whatever is discussed though. She loves to sort through things and pick whatever she finds useful to her.

Sometimes one comes to a fork in the road in their life and can't figure out which direction to take. Often they can set for a bit and ask questions and then get enough of an answer that helps them choose a direction with some more confidence. I have a feeling this is what has helped Silver already when she needs to make a life path decision.
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Default Jun 21, 2019 at 04:29 PM
  #29
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Does it? In what way? I haven't gotten that impression, at least not with close relationships.
I guess it's part of my background and experiences that have shaped my answer, but my own personal experiences have been taxing in the age of social media. I'm part of a generation where people with the most likes and friends on social media get the most respect. As I finished up 6 years of uni, there was a pressure to socialize and be as extroverted and similar to the crowd as possible, otherwise I would just fall through the cracks.

Maybe I just haven't figured out how to balance between constant connection and alone time, but after being stretched and living life with very few personal boundaries, I've been practicing how to achieve that balance and that's where I found Dunbar's concept promising!

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Default Jun 21, 2019 at 04:31 PM
  #30
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I think Silver can take from whatever is discussed though. She loves to sort through things and pick whatever she finds useful to her.
Oh no, I meant that in the best way. I thoroughly enjoy when people open this type of dialogue and we get to explore all the dark and scary parts of ourselves. I think we can all learn from it.

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I guess it's part of my background and experiences that have shaped my answer, but my own personal experiences have been taxing in the age of social media. I'm part of a generation where people with the most likes and friends on social media get the most respect. As I finished up 6 years of uni, there was a pressure to socialize and be as extroverted and similar to the crowd as possible, otherwise I would just fall through the cracks.

Maybe I just haven't figured out how to balance between constant connection and alone time, but after being stretched and living life with very few personal boundaries, I've been practicing how to achieve that balance and that's where I found Dunbar's concept promising!
You and I are in the same age range.

What makes you think that those with a lot of likes and social media friends get more respect? Perhaps it's that they're liked and have many friends because they're respected. They've done something to earn that respect, or they're just generally charismatic.
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Default Jun 21, 2019 at 05:41 PM
  #31
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Oh no, I meant that in the best way. I thoroughly enjoy when people open this type of dialogue and we get to explore all the dark and scary parts of ourselves. I think we can all learn from it.
Yes, I know no worries. I think there are topics that can end up taking conversations in some interesting directions. Sometimes a person can get so caught up in their own little world challenges that a conversation like this can be very refreshing.
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Default Jun 23, 2019 at 04:16 PM
  #32
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You and I are in the same age range.

What makes you think that those with a lot of likes and social media friends get more respect? Perhaps it's that they're liked and have many friends because they're respected. They've done something to earn that respect, or they're just generally charismatic.
You bring up a good point - on my old Facebook profile I had 810 friends and on my Insta I get an average of 80-100 likes on my posts, so I guess I'm doing something right. I guess to reframe my main point I've been around people who supported leaky boundaries so the lines of intimacy and acquaintanceships have been very blurred. So at one point I've friended "friends of friends of friends..." and in IRL have often given into pressure to socialize very personally even if I am busy or have little energy on my part to connect with others. This was common with a lot of the people who I hung out with in college - who turned out to be jerks in the end or didn't associate with me outside the usual settings.

I have been recovering from toxic social experiences so I hope it doesn't sound like I'm complaining too much!

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Default Jun 23, 2019 at 05:13 PM
  #33
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in IRL have often given into pressure to socialize very personally even if I am busy or have little energy on my part to connect with others. This was common with a lot of the people who I hung out with in college - who turned out to be jerks in the end or didn't associate with me outside the usual settings.

I have been recovering from toxic social experiences so I hope it doesn't sound like I'm complaining too much!
Like, pressured to go to parties and socialize? Or pressured to divulge personal secrets to someone else? How did they pressure you?

But yeah, I get what you're saying with "blurred lines" when it comes to personal boundaries.
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Default Jun 23, 2019 at 05:44 PM
  #34
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Like, pressured to go to parties and socialize? Or pressured to divulge personal secrets to someone else? How did they pressure you?

But yeah, I get what you're saying with "blurred lines" when it comes to personal boundaries.
Thank you for your understanding. The issue of who we distribute our intimacy seems to be a common problem which necessitated the OP.

Actually yes to both. After I decided to leave the groups who sent me spiraling in the first place some of the people in those groups tried to lure me right back in, refusing to understand that I was juggling both misunderstandings with friends and hectic transitions simultaneously. Others in my so-called "support group" have forced me to come out of my shell even though I am someone more likely to enhance current friendships rather than branch out. A large part of why I left the groups I previously enjoyed as a young dumb college student is they were too sensitive and personal with seemingly everyday occurences. So yes people expected me to open up and share everything about me, but at the same time I risked criticism for what I shared. Not helpful when I've been going through this rough patch in my life. And most people at where I attended school were flashy with their social life and flaunted it on SM. Kind of like "everybody else is doing it, why not you", that sort of mentality.

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