How to save my marriage

Reading through these forums, this is a question that has been talked about a lot. However, I'm literally 3 hours after my wife told me she wants a divorce.

Roll back 2 1/2 years. My wife told me she wanted a divorce then while we were meeting with our counselor. I was able to get her to commit to continue trying. I went through weekly counseling sessions and we had joint sessions every 2-4 weeks. Three months ago, things were absolutely great. I've radically changed how I am and the owned and addressed all the issues I knew about. I continue to work on problems, many due to an emotionally abusive childhood making me controlling and also prone to saying hurtful things when our fights escalated.

We went away for a several week trip in July. Just before this, she brought up a major issue she had regarding finances. I reacted poorly and it escalated. We were going to cancel the trip but then talked about everything and I thought it was resolved. We had a wonderful time, got along fabulously and seemed pretty happy.

We got back last week and I asked her "How are we doing?" She said that she wasn't sure. Apparently she went to the counselor last week and was asked "If your husband changed everything about himself to what you want, would you feel close to him then and want to be with him?" She thought about it and, since she told me 3 hours ago that she wants to split up, the answer was no.

I'm hopelessly in love with her. I've changed not just for her, but to become a better person. There are still attributes to my personality that apparently exist. The biggest one is that she's scared of me. Scared of my reaction when she brings something up that could create conflict. She doesn't want to live in fear. I understand this.

As hard as it is, about an hour ago I told her "I accept that you feel this is over. I understand there are still things that are between us. I regret the hurtful things I've done and want to atone for them," I've put together a list of hurtful things I've done and outstanding issues that I know of, along with a list of positive qualities I bring to our relationship and things I still need to work on - like mutual respect, communication, humility etc. I shared this with her.

Basically, we're talking for an hour and then taking a break. Her big thing is that she doesn't think I can change and it's not right for me to continue to change. I need to be who I am. However, from my perspective I love her to the moon and back and know I am a better person because I'm with her. I do not want this relationship to break, and we've put 2.5 years worth of work into it and got to a good place which has regressed and dredged the original issues back up.

I know a lot of people are going to say, to sum it up, know when to quit. You tried already and it didn't work. There is no second reset switch. Move on.

But I'm not ready to give up.

What can I read? What should I say? We're seeing the counselor again tomorrow and Monday. I do not want to plead and cry and guilt her into sticking this out. I want to respect her decision, but proffer my own middle ground and try to find a way to fix things. What are your thoughts?

Hi marriagekeeper. Sorry to hear you are having trouble with marriage. That must be rough.

I am not sure what the solution is but does it seem that no matter what you do your wife is not content. You seem to be bending over backwards and she seems to just keep dangling the D word. One thing to ask, is this life of being in uncertainty and futile attempts to satisfy her really worth it. There are probably lots of factors to consider like if you have kids or property owned in common.

I would ask her with the counselor there,. "What exactly would make you happy with our relationship?"

Then I would ask myself is this humanly possible or not and will she just keep moving the goal posts when you approach giving her what she wants.

Hello marriagekeeper: I'm sorry I don't think there's a lot I can offer with regard to your circumstances. But I noticed this is your first post here on PC. So... welcome to Psych Central.

Here's a link to an article, from Psych Central's archives, on the subject of discernment counseling. Based on what you wrote in your post, it sounds as though something of this sort may be where you & your wife are coming to at this point. Within the article there are links to several additional sources of related information:

When One Spouse Wants Out of the Marriage But the Other Doesn't

My best wishes to you & your wife. I hope you find PC to be of benefit.

My recommendation is not to do or promise anything--just give yourself some space. Divorce is obviously a very emotional issue for you and if she still loves you than it will be an emotional issue for her too! Don't agree to divorce her or make it easier if it's not what you want (she will have to do a lot of paperwork and come up with about $1,000 to get the ball rolling--let that be her problem) and that will buy you some time.

If you overreact then you do need to continue to improve that and anything else she complains about that is legitimate but we can't make other people love us and desperation is unattractive. If you are always the one trying to please her and she doesn't give back to you in some way then it will hurt even more if/when it ends. Keep trying but don't try too hard.

It is very hard to love someone who does not love you. Hopefully she still loves you but if she does not then staying with her will be just as hard (only the pain is not all at once) as the divorce. Hugs.

I'm DEEPLY SORRY for what you're going through, @marriagekeeper! Like CANDC, Skeezyks and TunedOut have already wisely said better than I ever could... you can't really force her to Love you. It seems like you're trying your best to make her happy. That's TRULY admirable - it really is! But if she still refuses to stay with you after ALL of this, perhaps the best thing to do is to truly let her go. I understand that's REALLY painful but unfortunately in some cases there aren't too many alternatives. I want to make clear that it is NOT your fault this is happening. Everyone has some flaws. You're doing good by acknowledging and by trying to work on them. You're only human after all! If this isn't enough for your Wife, though, perhaps the "spark" just isn't there anymore. You can try to ask her if there's ANYTHING you can do to still save your marriage, but if she's firm on her decision, then perhaps it's best, for BOTH You and Her, to just let it go. I'm REALLY HAPPY that you're going to see your Counselor soon at least! Definitely talk things through with him! Hopefully you'll be able to find a solution. If you don't, take your tiem to grieve, but remember that Life isn't over. You can STILL Live a good Life by YOURSELF so please NEVER give up Hope! Not to mention you may STILL find someone else for you! Keep working on yourself like you're already WONDERFULLY doing ALL and ENTIRELY by YOURSELF! Please keep us updated on your situation if you wish to do so. Things will get better one way or another. I'm SURE of that! Feel free to PM me ANYTIME when you need Advice and Support. I'm sure PLENTY of other wise, wonderful posters will gladly HELP YOU OUT as well! Sending many safe, warm hugs to BOTH you, @marriagekeeper, your Family, your Friends, your Wife, your Counselor and ALL Of Your Loved Ones! PLEASE KEEP FIGHTING AND KEEP ROCKING AS MUCH AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN LIKE YOU'RE ALREADY WONDERFULLY DOING ALL AND ENTIRELY BY YOURSELF!

I agree with this. She is lucky that you love her enough to address your issues. Whatever happens, marriage requires both partners to work together/makes contributions. She should consider your needs just like you are trying to address hers. She loved you enough to marry you---I hope it all works out.

In counseling I would ask her if she still loves you.

Maybe a little insight from a now EX-wife that was kinda in a similar place as your wife.

For me....every issue that came up chipped away at my RESPECT for my now EX. He even swore he made the changes that I said were necessary but honestly I never saw them.

For me.....it was 33 years of this but the last 13 were the final straw.

Bottom line is that even if he had been capable of making the necessary changes the respect was already lost & no marriage can exist without respect as the foundation. Even love doesn't fix lost respect.

It sounds to me like your wife MAY be at the point I finally got to when I left & her telling you that it isn't fair to make you change sounds like just a way she is trying to hurt you less even though she has had enough & really just wants out. If counselling hasn't helped in this amount of time....there may just be a lot of unspoken (maybe she isn't aware) emotions that are going on inside of her at this point. It took me years after I left my H & lots of good therapy to learn all the emotions I had wrapped up in wanting out of the marriage. It is never simple & always more to it than meets the eye.

Sometimes just cutting your losses is the best solution. You can't make something work when the other person has had enough

I think the obvious point in this is.....

She’s scared of you at times over having a discussion you obviously have problems with.

How can you expect her to want to stay with you ?

Okay you have grown as a person, made changes and that’s wonderful !!!

As a person once in a relationship with a person that I did fear at times there was no way I could stay.

Good luck

Thanks for all the replies. Before she told me she wanted to split up she said she loved me, cared for me deeply, but didn't feel we're compatible any longer. I disagree.

I appreciate what people are saying regarding moving on, but we're still talking and the changes she's looking for are ones which would make me better as a person overall. I'm not ready to move on and would love to hear ideas on some of the questions I ask below at the bottom of this message,

I also appreciate that people are saying I'm a good person. I like to think that I have a good heart and try to do the right thing, but I also grew up in a very emotionally abusive household with a single mom and while I've been in therapy for it for years and have either managed it or repressed it, it leaks out every so often.

We saw our counselor Friday and it went okay My wife and I have been communicating verbally, but she likes to take her time to process and react so we've also been communicating via shared diary entries. She's let me read through the past couple of years of her diary entries and they are eye opening.

Today I wrote a very thought out message about trust and relationships. I said she needs to figure out for herself whether she can trust me again, but I laid out elements of things I could do to regain her trust (accept responsibility, own it, apologize, honesty between partners, keeping promises, realizing things will never be the same, it will take time, keep words and actions consistent). I also put in a list of why it would be positive to be together (share loving and caring, learn and grow, support each other, share companionship and fun, loving and physical intimacy), and a large list of the actual approaches we should take together to be successful at this (issues to work on, how we could communicate, weekly discussions to see how we're doing, and a bunch of more practical stuff that she was upset about).

She read it, cried while reading it, finished it, and then put on a happy music playlist on spotify and watched funny videos on Youtube. She wrote down some stuff but said she'd share it with me tomorrow as she was feeling drained after today.

She left her computer on, open and sitting on our kitchen island when she went to bed. I don't know if it was on purpose or not, but I couldn't help but see what she wrote.

She literally said that I'm saying all the right things, I fully understand her pain, what caused it, and that I'm willing to fix it. But that she's done. She doesn't want to try any longer. And that she doesn't believe me when I say I'm going to actually do this. She called me ridiculous and said she begged me in the past to help with things but I ignored her and treated her like a lesser (I don't feel I did, but her perception is the important thing - not mine). She said that when she thinks about staying together she cries. When she thinks about living alone she's happy. She said that she looks at me and has zero belief that what I say I'll do will stick.

Her biggest overarching issues right now are the trust issue with regards to me still keeping up with being a good person (helping out with stuff, not making her scared to talk to me about conflict, letting her be her, etc.) a year from now, and the fact that she's tired and doesn't want any more conflict. She doesn't want to hurt any more.

One of the issues we have is finances, and we have a large sailboat that we spend a bunch of money on each year. Tonight, I emailed 2 boat brokers asking if they could tell me their value and their cost structures and I cc'd my wife on the emails. I also told her "There's not much I can do to gain your trust through words, but I just cc'd you on two emails to boat brokers in Annapolis to get their info about putting Pelican up for sale. I don’t need any of these things. Why it took me til now to know... means I’m an ***...I will give it all away today to have you. Just watch... you are all that matters and I’ll go down the list one by one and show you... and if I can’t get it done by Monday... then I’ll continue Tuesday. And Wednesday and I won’t stop until all of your needs are met."

So here's my question. One of her questions to the counselor is if there's a middle ground between not leaving and separating. We're working on our house in order to sell it, but we won't be doing that until the Spring. Our counselor didn't have any ideas. I mean, we can stay living together but if she's closed off to me and not open to any form of reconciliation I don't know what that would do other than make things worse. Does anyone have any ideas on some sort of middle ground? I've also thought about suggesting a marriage retreat or 2-3 days of intensive counseling to just get everything out.. I'd love to hear any ideas you have.

I'm sure many of you probably think I'm stupid, but we've been together for 27 years and married for 22 years. I am still hopelessly in love with her, and what she wants, as I said, are things that would make me better as a person so I'm absolutely willing to change them.

She may be interpreting your desire to continue the marriage despite her preference to end it as some of the controlling behavior she doesn't like. Allowing her to act on her request for a divorce instead of trying to persuade her to do what you want to do seems like it would demonstrate that you are not trying to control her. I am not sure you can save the marriage when one person wants to leave it

GOOD NEWS (FOR ME). SHE'S STAYING!!!

I'm sure people are going to say I'm an idiot for wanting this. Wanting to be with a woman who wants me to change so much. People should accept you for who you are. However, in my case, as I mentioned, I grew up emotionally abused (my mother was, later in life after I moved out, diagnosed as severely manic and severely bi-polar and while I was growing up she had zero medication). I have certain tendencies in my behavior that show themselves when things escalate and result in what could be considered mild forms of emotional abuse (trying to score a point to hurt someone). I also prefer sitting on the couch to going out, don't like doing housework so I don't, etc. The changes she's asking for are are ones that will make me a better person overall.

What finally helped? Well, one of our big areas of stress has been finances. We don't have money saved for retirement and should have hundreds of thousands saved by this point in our lives. We have a large boat and spend a lot of money on it. We don't use credit cards so our fluid debt is not big, but we also spend enough that we don't save. We were already in the process of downsizing our house since our kids have moved out, but the boat and some other stuff are big stresses. However, the boat has always been my sanctuary. We lived on it for several years (on purpose) with our kids and went cruising the the Caribbean and back. I have dreams of moving back onto her when we retire. Those dreams used to be shared, but the financial reality has changed them.

So basically I told her that I'm willing to sell our boat and our other few big expensive things. What I've been doing with our finances obviously hasn't worked and that I am open to her ideas. That I'm up for moving into a small house (which is what our intent was anyway since it's just the two of us now), selling the boat, putting money away for retirement and getting rid of our financial stress.

She feels that by doing that she will have the emotional energy to help me become a better person. Without it, all she saw was that we'd still have major stresses in our life in addition to me, and that she could get rid of all of that by living alone. If I'm willing to subscribe to her plan of the next part of our lives, she's willing to give us another shot and truly invest back into the relationship.

I'm actually OK with selling the boat. One, it's just a thing. Second, we take 4-6 week trips on her every Summer, and when we did our trip this Summer I hurt like hell afterward. I realized she's not the boat we'd want for retirement anyway. However, selling her will definitely leave a void in my life I need to fill, and I need to be careful that I don't resent my wife for MY choice to sell the boat.

Anyway, hopefully I'll never be back here again. I appreciate the help and thoughts everyone provided!!!

I'll also add a few things that helped me for people who may read this thread at a later time:

• Don't give up
• Keep communication going from the second you are told that your spouse wants a separation until some sort of resolution happens
• Don't plead, beg, cry a lot, etc. Be rational.
• Find a person of the opposite sex who can help you better understand points of view
• Make sure to talk to people who are both married and divorced for advice
• Write down your thoughts and share this writing with your spouse and ask them to respond. Then talk about the writings. By writing stuff down it gets you to really think about what you're saying and organize your thoughts, all while making it so you're not reacting in the moment.
• If the only reason you're trying to stay in the relationship is because you can't bear to think about being apart from your spouse, then you need to find more reasons to stay in the relationship. Your spouse will rarely accept that as a reason. In my case, I recognized that I will become a better person now that she's identified some of my character flaws, and that by becoming a better person we'll be able to enjoy our relationship more.
• SEE A MARRIAGE COUNSELOR, BUT MAKE SURE THEY HELP NOT HURT. Our counselor is AWESOME. However, one of the counselors we saw before we picked this one several years ago told my wife and I that I was a jerk and she would be better to leave me. Not all counselors are built the same. You may have to try a few.

And here are some of the things I suggested to my wife to make sure I don't screw up this chance.

Issues to work on

• How I react to conflict and being scary
• Saying mean things
• Laziness
• Selfishness including trying to get “my way”
• Finances

Communications

• We go back to you writing and me responding in writing. Once initial issues have been laid out, we may go to verbal communication, but I would leave that choice up to you.
• The writing would be completely open, honest and incorporate true feelings. If you identify an overarching or repetitive issue it would be great if you could communicate this to me.
• If you have a big issue and want to communicate it verbally, I will let you tell me everything you want and will not have a negative or aggressive reaction. If it creates a bad feeling on my part, I will wait until I process everything before I respond. This may be later in the day or even the next day. The goal is not to respond in the moment and to truly consider how you feel, while also making you less scared of communicating with me and how I’ll respond.
• I will always respond to something you raised by the next day at the latest. We’ll continue to talk about it every day until we are both OK with the result, even if it takes a month (which I certainly hope never happens).
• When we disagree on something, I won’t always argue my point and try to get what I want. I will work to understand the reasoning behind what you want, step away to consider it if needed, and realize at times it’s good for you to get what you want without compromise and at times I’ll get what I want without compromise - and sometimes we’ll find a compromise we can both agree to. I may ask for your help here to tell me that I’m being argumentative.
• If I realize I said something stupid, acknowledge it and apologize. If you hear me say something stupid and I don’t seem to realize it, tell me (**** you or asshole is acceptable). Over time I will become better aware of what is ok and what’s not ok to say.
• Reduce the number of times I leave a conversation because I’m hijacked. Do my best to work through it. If I get to the point where I regress and feel like I’m going to say something hurtful - then it’s ok to walk away for a moment and process the conversation - but then come back to it. Don’t leave things hanging.
• On a weekly basis, you’ll give the relationship a ranking of 1 to 10, 1 being terrible and 10 being amazing. If the week was great but you’re pissed the day that you rank it, it shouldn’t be a 1, but it also shouldn’t be a 10. At your discretion, you’ll write why you ranked the week that way. This will give me clear and timely feedback on how we’re doing - and whether I am doing the right things or not. I could do the same if you’d like. We could also verbally talk about the rank, but I’d really like to make sure as much as possible is written down.

Finances

• Discuss the boat. I would prefer not to sell it but I will be OK with this and not be resentful if that’s what we need to do. I think there are pros and cons but I will be OK with what is decided. (I later changed this to.. we're selling the boat)
• Look for more ways to save - look at my spending and “what do I want to spend” vs.” what do I need to spend”.

More practical stuff:

• We’ll put a schedule together for making dinner. I’ll take your suggestion of some time ago and maybe make dinners on weekends to refrigerate so they can just be heated. Whomever doesn’t do dinner washes the dishes and they will be done before dinner the following night.
• We’ll put a list of stuff together for keeping the house clean.
• I’ll work on going through everything in the basement and work to keep up a schedule of one box or area a day.
• I’ll start exercising in some shape, fashion or form. I would appreciate your help with coaching on this.
• We’ll do our best to try to do something at least a couple of times each month if not more. Get out of the house. Do something together. Farmer’s market? Apple picking? Going to some town again? Doesn’t need to cost anything like going out to dinner. The point is to spend time together and have fun as a couple.

I wish I could give you good advice but I'm in the exact same boat as you are. Divorce is hanging over our heads atm and it's a horrible feeling at the moment. We've been together for 13 years and married 3 and I am madly in love with her. I never saw anything but our lives... together. I don't want to lose her but she has already said that she loves me but is not in love with me and that it's not fair for her to stay because I deserve someone who loves me 100%. She has also told me that even though I make her 80% happy is it worth staying when there is a possibility that she could leave and find someone that makes her 90-100% happy. She has also told me things that make me sound like the biggest, most selfish asshole in the whole world and I feel like ****. Why would she stay with me if I was such a worthless asshole? And how do I even make her 80% happy?

But what I don't understand though, is that she only says that when we fight and will later tell me that she makes her happy and that she needs to decided if I'm worth giving up for a possibility of greater happiness. My friend say that I shouldn't come in second in my relationship (there was an affair involved and I felt like I came in second in my own marriage... long story.) and that I shouldn't stay with someone who is looking for better things and just keeping me around till then. However, when we're together and we're happy it's the best feeling in the world and I can see/feel that she is happy too. I know I should have greater self worth and leave, but I love her too much to just throw it all away because I do think she is not only the love of my life, but my best friend as well. If we divorce she wants to stay friends and I just can't do that. If we're done... we're done. I can't be with her in just a friends capacity and that makes me sad because I would lose both my wife and my best friend.

What we have agreed on is to take it one step at a time. Day by day. I am working on a lot of things, things that she says annoys her or have made her lose faith in me. We both want to try and fix our marriage and she says if we stop fighting it will help her to fall back in love with me. I honestly don't know if we'll be together this time next year but we're working on it and she is now wearing her wedding ring again, so that's a good sign I guess. If you need someone to vent to, or talk with someone who is kind of in the same boat, please feel free to private message me.

@LacunaCoiler

Quote:

Originally Posted by LacunaCoiler I wish I could give you good advice but I'm in the exact same boat as you are. Divorce is hanging over our heads atm and it's a horrible feeling at the moment. We've been together for 13 years and married 3 and I am madly in love with her. I never saw anything but our lives... together. I don't want to lose her but she has already said that she loves me but is not in love with me and that it's not fair for her to stay because I deserve someone who loves me 100%. She has also told me that even though I make her 80% happy is it worth staying when there is a possibility that she could leave and find someone that makes her 90-100% happy.

IMO this is almost worse than a marriage full of fights and strife. For someone to tell you that they are not in love with you and make them 80% happy and they might be able to find someone who makes them 90% or more happy is a way of quantifying that I cant wrap my head around. Think about that for a minute....80% happy and not in love with you. That is huge and I do not think changes you make can make someone fall in love with you again. Falling in love is the beginning of a relationship but I do not believe you can make that happen.

Quote:

She has also told me things that make me sound like the biggest, most selfish asshole in the whole world and I feel like ****. Why would she stay with me if I was such a worthless asshole? And how do I even make her 80% happy?

Do you believe her? Are you a selfish asshole in all honesty? Or is that her way of deflection?

Quote:

But what I don't understand though, is that she only says that when we fight and will later tell me that she makes her happy and that she needs to decided if I'm worth giving up for a possibility of greater happiness. My friend say that I shouldn't come in second in my relationship (there was an affair involved and I felt like I came in second in my own marriage... long story.) and that I shouldn't stay with someone who is looking for better things and just keeping me around till then.

Did she have an affair? If so it sounds like she was already looking to make up the 20% deficit and that is not a good thing. Its all well and good to have the feelings but to have an affair and then tell you she cant decide if you are worth holding onto because of percentages is....like ridiculous.

Quote:

However, when we're together and we're happy it's the best feeling in the world and I can see/feel that she is happy too. I know I should have greater self worth and leave, but I love her too much to just throw it all away because I do think she is not only the love of my life, but my best friend as well. If we divorce she wants to stay friends and I just can't do that. If we're done... we're done. I can't be with her in just a friends capacity and that makes me sad because I would lose both my wife and my best friend.

It is a horrible feeling but I think its a good step to realize that you would not be able to stay friends.

Quote:

What we have agreed on is to take it one step at a time. Day by day. I am working on a lot of things, things that she says annoys her or have made her lose faith in me. We both want to try and fix our marriage and she says if we stop fighting it will help her to fall back in love with me. I honestly don't know if we'll be together this time next year but we're working on it and she is now wearing her wedding ring again, so that's a good sign I guess. If you need someone to vent to, or talk with someone who is kind of in the same boat, please feel free to private message me.

It sounds like you are doing all the changing. What about her?

+

Wow, not that many women would live on a boat with kids! (We had a sailboat before we had kids and I can't imagine raising kids on a boat) It sounds like your wife can be flexible about many things too!

I have been married 31+ years and sometimes adjustments have to be made that are not easy. You said you aren't planning to come back to PC but if you do--I hope it all works out for you and your wife!

I have an amazing wife that is way too good for me. She has her faults, as we all do, but I have a very strong personality so to stick through this.. and it was (is, until we sell her) a 40' sailboat.. when you're in the Caribbean you spend more time off the boat than on so it doesn't seem as small.

I actually think I'll be back. Not right away as I want to focus on my marriage and myself, but if I can give even one person inspiration and help turning a "I'm going to leave you and will not change my mind" into "I feel like we're closer than we've been in over 15 years"..

She's really sharing with me all her issues. She's getting everything off her chest. I don't like hearing everything, but I feel like we finally have a relationship again.. She's also fine with me telling her my issues with her and our relationship so we can incorporate them into the melting pot.

I'm a very blessed person.