Suppose I were to enter into a romantic relationship with a normal person who needs emotional support and validation from time to time in order to be mentally well. What sort of emotional support and validation do you need? What happens if you don't get it? How do I know when this stops being supportive and starts being manipulative?

[stefano]

I think it depends on the intention. Supporting means respecting, helping sb to be who he wants to be. Manipulating means "helping" sb to be what YOU want him/her to be.

[Lilly2]

The person asking for support can also be manipulative. Hmmm... I am wondering myself how to detect manipulation on either or both ends. This is a great question!

Originally Posted by stefano

I think it depends on the intention. Supporting means respecting, helping sb to be who he wants to be. Manipulating means "helping" sb to be what YOU want him/her to be.

My intention is to preserve the relationship. When it comes to expressions of affection, I tend to throw them around rather carelessly and without thought to how it affects others. I'll always neglect to show any affection simply because I don't need it, and expressing it constantly feels forced and dramatic to me. I kinda figured that other people experience these things differently than I do, but it's only recently that I've begun to realize how important it is to one's psychological wellbeing. Mostly from hearing people talk about trauma in relationships and what traumatized them, and I'm like, "Oh ****. I do that all the time."

I'd have to be careful with the last bit, and I'd need him to be clear about what he wants.

Originally Posted by Lilly2

I am wondering myself how to detect manipulation on either or both ends.

Oh, that's easy. Emotional manipulation in particular is just blatantly obvious. I don't know how people don't see it.

[Lilly2]

Oh, that's easy. Emotional manipulation in particular is just blatantly obvious. I don't know how people don't see it.

For me, it is hard to tell the difference between someone being sincere and someone who has ulterior motives.

I suppose if I were not too emotional, I could just be happy with the sincerity, for instance, but say no if or when the person asks me to do something I do not want to do. That might not be a good example, but my brain is fried and I cannot think of a better one.

I like what Stefano said.

[divine1966]

I think it’s important to find the right match. Not everyone wants or needs same (or any) amounts of affection or validation or otherwise emotional connection with romantic partner .

We are all on a spectrum of various degrees of emotional need.

It’s important to find someone we can compromise and find balance with. I personally am not particularly warm and fuzzy person, not saying I don’t need or don’t give affection, I do, but just not at the same degree that some other people.

My offer of support is more of a practical take care of business no nonsense approach than cuddling and rainbows and unicorns. For example, if someone keeps losing their jobs my approach is to figure out what they are doing wrong (because they obviously are doing something wrong) and fix it ASAP. Some people want cuddling oh poor you the world is against you. Sorry I won’t provide this kind of support. My support is to help find practical solution and say it how it is. I guess it won’t work for everyone. But that’s how it is

Constant expression of affection is irritating. I would not be able to sustain it. I don’t believe everyone needs such degree of affection.

I think it’s important to openly discuss what people need and to what degree and what could be compromised and what alternatives are possible

Originally Posted by Lilly2

For me, it is hard to tell the difference between someone being sincere and someone who has ulterior motives.

Why is it hard for you to tell?

Originally Posted by divine1966

I think it’s important to find the right match. Not everyone wants or needs same (or any) amounts of affection or validation or otherwise emotional connection with romantic partner .

So I need a psychopath. But they're hard to find.

Yes, I most certainly would not be able to handle someone who needs constant affection, never mind that someone who needs constant affection would probably do better with a good therapist anyway.

I understand everyone's different, but in general, it seems most people need a certain amount of affection and validation in order to be happy.

[divine1966]

No I don’t think you need to find someone exactly like you. It’s not the case at all. In fact I always found that being with someone exactly like me was exhausting. I am actually very happy (and so is he) with someone who isn’t like me personality wise.

Yes people need some amount of affection and emotional
support, just to a different degree. I guess some maybe don’t. But maybe they just think they don’t.

[Lilly2]

Originally Posted by theoretical

Why is it hard for you to tell?

Good question. You know, I am not sure why.

[LilyMop]

Originally Posted by theoretical

Oh, that's easy. Emotional manipulation in particular is just blatantly obvious. I don't know how people don't see it.

This would be a good discussion. I often notice that most people fall for some type of manipulation and I wonder why.

I don’t trust very easily anymore. I just watch people because insincerity and manipulation will definitely reveal itself in time.

Regardless of the level of affection and emotional validation a person needs in a relationship, I think sincerity is what most people need for a healthy relationship.

[divine1966]

Sometimes people are in denial about being manipulated because they are so starving for love and validation that they are willing to close their eyes to reality. Sometimes they feel that fake support is better than no support. Same way some people believe it’s better be in a bad relationship than alone. It’s not like they don’t see manipulation, they subconsciously ignore it same way people ignore red flags. Reality isn’t always an easy pill to swallow. For many people it is not easy

[LilyMop]

Originally Posted by divine1966

Sometimes people are in denial about being manipulated because they are so starving for love and validation that they are willing to close their eyes to reality. Sometimes they feel that fake support is better than no support. Same way some people believe it’s better be in a bad relationship than alone. It’s not like they don’t see manipulation, they subconsciously ignore it same way people ignore red flags. Reality isn’t always an easy pill to swallow. For many people it is not easy

Excellent point. Yes. This is sadly very true.

[TishaBuv]

I think there is a normal range of show of affection that is required/expected in relationships. It depends on your culture. What do most people do?

When someone needs much more than what most people do, they are considered too needy. When someone shows much less than what is the norm, they are considered aloof.

If you feel like someone is needing from you more than you can or want to give, then it’s just not going to work. You can up your game a little in the show of affection of someone you truly feel affection for. But you can’t totally fake something.

Is upping your game considered manipulation? Maybe. You’re learning to give more of yourself to make someone else feel good. Is that bit of manipulation a bad thing? Not if it keeps you in a relationship you want. Then it’s a win-win. If it feels good for them, then if it feels good for you, it’s good.

As for manipulation— I usually recognize it. But some people are so darn good at it, that you never know you got played.

All these things like show of affection that is the norm and manipulation red flags are so hard to teach. I wouldn’t know how to explain it to someone. You just learn by what you see and experience.

[Lilly2]

I really appreciate everyone's candor here! It helps me to learn, and it shows me how diverse we all really are!

Some of the responses here are really wise, and some are really stoic. All of those forms of logic are great teaching tools (at least for me)!

Thank you!

[s4ndm4n2006]

Everyone has motives for their behaviors and some of them are completely on the side of the other person. If the so called support is at all to get something out of it, it is manipulative. Support, whether emotional or otherwise is only truly support if it's about you. In other words if you're crying they come to you to make you feel better because they want you to feel better or know you're there. Any other reason for giving anything in a relationship is a kind of manipulation.

Granted not all manipulation is bad, we all do it to an extent to get what we want in life and with people we know and care about. it really needs to be taken into context of the situation. If I only will "cuddle, hug" or otherwise be physically supportive of my SO so that [insert reason here] happens then it's not support it's feigned support and a manipulation.

I'd be wary of anyone that upfront says that they expect support for anything. because that to me says it's someone that thinks in terms of conditions also and what can I give to them. Idk about the rest of you but for me going into a relationship early on I don't think about such things. I never go into a relationship at all wondering what she can give me in terms of emotional support at all. I wonder if she'll like the same things as I, music, entertainment and what values she has and if they match. I just dont' think a relationship based on the amount of "support" given or expected is a strong basis.

[Lilly2]

YouTube

Originally Posted by divine1966

But maybe they just think they don’t.

Shots fired.

Originally Posted by LilyMop

I think sincerity is what most people need for a healthy relationship.

I think sincerity is a nice sentiment, but if I were to be totally sincere with a romantic partner, it would almost inevitably be emotionally damaging and extremely one-sided.

Suppose the expression of love we were talking about was physical intimacy, anywhere from cuddling to sex, and one partner in the relationship was asexual. The asexual partner can choose to not have sex because that's simply who they are, and they can try to express their affection in other ways. But usually this leaves the other partner feeling unloved because physical intimacy is something most people need.

Likewise, most people need a sense of connection and emotional validation, and that's something I can't give sincerely in the same way that an asexual person can't bond over or enjoy sex with their partner sincerely.

Originally Posted by divine1966

Sometimes people are in denial about being manipulated because they are so starving for love and validation that they are willing to close their eyes to reality.

Yeah, I think this is a major factor for a lot of people, and sort of what I was getting at when I said people need a certain degree of love and validation to be emotionally healthy. Without it, they get all insecure, clingy, depressed, or anxious.

The most common manipulation tactics are emotional - guilt tripping, negging, flattery, love bombing, threats, outbursts, etc. You can't be guilt tripped if you don't feel guilt, nor can you be love bombed if you don't feel love. Naturally, it's very easy for me to see through these tactics because I'm unaffected by them. I still wonder if people realize they're being guilt tripped, but the guilt is too strong for them to ignore it, or if their guilt prevents them from seeing the other person's intentions.

There are manipulation tactics that have gotten me in the past, but I'm not going to tell you which ones.

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

Is upping your game considered manipulation? Maybe. You’re learning to give more of yourself to make someone else feel good. Is that bit of manipulation a bad thing? Not if it keeps you in a relationship you want. Then it’s a win-win. If it feels good for them, then if it feels good for you, it’s good.

I'm taking that as a green light.

Manipulation red flags are so hard to teach. I wouldn’t know how to explain it to someone. You just learn by what you see and experience.

I'll agree to that. As soon as I typed, "but it's so obvious!" I realized that I had no idea how to actually explain it. Not to mention that there are a ton of different manipulation tactics, and each needs to be observed and handled differently.

It's kinda like chess, though. When you first start to play the game, your opponent's tactics might seem simple, random or meaningless. But after learning some basic strategy, it's now obvious to you that your opponent's seemingly innocuous movement of a pawn actually served to unblock, and thereby strengthen, his bishop.

Originally Posted by s4ndm4n2006

I'd be wary of anyone that upfront says that they expect support for anything. because that to me says it's someone that thinks in terms of conditions also and what can I give to them. Idk about the rest of you but for me going into a relationship early on I don't think about such things. I never go into a relationship at all wondering what she can give me in terms of emotional support at all.

Few people go into the relationship thinking about how much support they'll get because it's one of those things that's generally expected without needing to negotiate it. Kinda like air. You don't pay much attention to it until it's gone, and by then you're already suffocating and so desperate for something to fill your lungs that you'll take anything, even if it's toxic.

People who are overly concerned about such things usually have had insecure relationships in the past. They know what it's like to suffocate. Consequently, they're always thinking about whether they'll have enough air to breath.

[TishaBuv]

“It's kinda like chess, though. When you first start to play the game, your opponent's tactics might seem simple, random or meaningless.”

^Exactly! Except there are infinitely more variables to humans! Some folks seem so innocent when they move their pawn, but they have the king’s capture in their sights!

I’m not sure specifically what you are dealing with as far as emotional validation in your relationship. In my relationships, I ask “How was your day?” Or “How are you?” And I listen. That’s emotional validation, right?

[divine1966]

I don’t think all people necessarily get all anxious depressed or clingy when they don’t have emotional connection with people around them.. Many just don’t stuck around people who provide zero emotional validation or find other ways to fulfill themselves. I think your views of other people are a bit oversimplified. For example if I had a romantic partner who provided zero affection, I’d simply not stick around him. Why would i? Clingy with people who are not into me? No thanks. Life is too short. Many people operate this way.

What I find rather curious is that why you, a person who has no interest in affection or emotional connection neither giving nor receiving, seek romantic relationship? I’d say it defeats the purpose of romantic relationship. Even those of us who don’t need whole ton of affection, need to give and receive some. If you need none of that, wouldn’t it better to just enjoy activity partners and maybe casual sex?

Why are you seeking something you don’t want and don’t need? Seems a waste of energy. There are ton of things I don’t want and don’t need. I’d not seek it. What for? Why not just be authentic? Do you want it because you observe others having it? But they naturally desire to give and receive that. It’s euther there or it’s not. Are you trying to be someone you aren’t?