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Default Feb 19, 2020 at 09:52 AM
  #41
Reading through the whole thread I am beginning to wonder. The DIL is sounding more like a scapegoat than a toxic person.
What if 'she' were one of us? What would actually help?

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Default Feb 22, 2020 at 10:22 AM
  #42
the last account he has told me about her hitting him was years before my granddaughter was born. (they've been together 10+ years). like i said, i am distancing myself from their personal problems, and my only concern is my granddaughters well being, unless he reaches out to me, then, of course, i will be available to help in any way i can.
thanks for your replies.

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Default Feb 22, 2020 at 10:27 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by winter4me View Post
Reading through the whole thread I am beginning to wonder. The DIL is sounding more like a scapegoat than a toxic person.
What if 'she' were one of us? What would actually help?
no, she is definitely NOT the scapegoat, even though i honestly think she does have mental problems that have not been addressed properly or treated.

she has been trouble since almost day one, and her trouble stems way before she even became involved with my son. there is obviously something he does love about her, and that is what he clings to, the goodness he does see in her.

right now, they are getting along and taking my granddaughter to a water park for her b-day. i am more at peace knowing they are getting along and doing things together, however hypocritical that may sound.

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Default Feb 22, 2020 at 01:37 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by kitkat620 View Post

"jane" is a chronic liar, had been arrested for possession/distribution of pills (and is now a convicted felon), in and out of jail for a year and 1/2 for failing drug tests or not showing up for her court dates, also has been arrested numerous other times on a variety of charges throughout their relationship, the most recent a few days ago for fighting outside the bar she works.


sometimes doesn't come home until the following morning barely in enough time for him to go to work.

he tried calling, texting her with no answer. me too. i offered to watch my granddaughter in the morning if jane didn't show up in time for him to go to work.

she also picks arguments giving her an out to leave.

i'm worried about my granddaughter.
Quoting the original post here.

"Jane" is no scapegoat. She IS toxic and the poor AP has been exasperated and at her wits end.

She's totally irresponsible, she's a convicted felon, is frequently getting arrested and probably is a drug addict. She neglects the child, has hit her son in the past, lies, and picks fights.

Maybe she has unaddressed mental health issues, but she is certainly toxic to the granddaughter and the OP's son.

And the poor OP's son is probably scared to leave her because he's afraid he won't see his child again... is my guess.

To the OP, I am glad you feel more at peace over this right now.

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Last edited by Have Hope; Feb 22, 2020 at 01:52 PM..
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Default Feb 23, 2020 at 07:26 AM
  #45
That was my first response, but as the conversation continued I began to feel differently.
When was the last time she was arrested? Being convicted of something doesn't make you a toxic person. And later texts say the kids are fine....and he has not said he fears losing his children this is all third hand...
We really have no information on the father in this case.
And, certainly the mother will not be looking for help from anyone close to her. Perhaps she is the one afraid to leave. I don't know, it's just become so speculative when it sounded clear at first... I am very skeptical when One person is "IT" in a (clearly) complicated family relationship. If this were true, he'd be divorced and have custody of the kids-----if he can show she's an addict, destructive etc...and he is a responsible father.

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Default Feb 23, 2020 at 07:42 AM
  #46
I'm guessing you or a family member has been in jail. Being in jail doesn't make one toxic by itself. All of it added together makes "jane" toxic. When the OP says she's toxic and lists out all the reasons why I think we should support her in that. Getting arrested for fighting outside of a bar, neglecting the child, lying and picking fights certainly makes her toxic. The son did express to her once that he was worried he wouldn't see his daughter if he left her. Regardless, I don't think this type of argument is supportive of the OP or helpful to the OP, and I think it should be dropped.

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Last edited by Have Hope; Feb 23, 2020 at 07:57 AM..
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Default Feb 23, 2020 at 09:30 AM
  #47
No. No one in my family has been in jail. As an RN, I did work in corrections for a few years.

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Default Feb 23, 2020 at 09:51 AM
  #48
When there is an individual/parent that has problems with addiction/alcoholism, everyone ends up walking on eggshells around THAT DISEASE. AND, if this woman was out all night drinking or drugging and comes home and the husband goes to work leaving this 2 year old with her? THAT IS CHILD NEGLECT because no way can a mother hung over will be able to give that baby the attention, caring, love it needs and deserves.

The OP's son is a codependent and enabler. To think this relationship is not affecting that child is WRONG too.
Not only that but he is giving this woman that clearly has issues with addiction WAY TOO MUCH power. He needs to go to some alanon meetings, he needs to be educated on the fact that he is a codependent enabler with someone that is unstable due to addiction issues and he needs to also go to adult children of alcoholics so he can hear how this dynamic caused so much DAMAGE in the children that had to grow up with a parent that is an addict. That entire family is living the CYCLE of ADDICTION, period!!
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Default Feb 23, 2020 at 10:27 AM
  #49
I just took the time to re-read the posts. It is possible to see something from another viewpoint. I'll let it go, I have no wish to upset anyone. Hugs to all.

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Default Feb 23, 2020 at 01:42 PM
  #50
Sometimes there is the elephant in the room that individuals are afraid to face and talk about out of fear of getting that elephant so upset that everyone gets hurt.

From what you have shared, it sounds like both you and your son are afraid of the elephant that may react badly where you and your son will not be able to be around that child.
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Default Feb 24, 2020 at 01:31 AM
  #51
And sometimes a person just wants to be heard , not judged or shamed or lectured.. just to be heard.

Good wishes.

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Default Feb 24, 2020 at 06:27 AM
  #52
Yes Christina, this is true. It can be very hard to be a parent and try to be there for a son or daughter that is engaged in a challenging relationship. It's important the OP be there and even have time with her grandchild because what SHOULD take place is her son's partner seek treatment to help her get sober and on a healthier track instead of continuing to engage in binging/remaining an addict.

This hits home with me in that I am married to a man that is a recovering binge alcoholic. I did not know what that was when I married my husband. I did not realize what I was really dealing with and I really thought my husband was just getting drunk at times due to his friend's influences because his friends all drank and did drugs and they were way worse than my husband. Ofcourse, now there is more information on this challenge compared to almost 40 years ago.

I woke up at 4 this morning, had an upsetting weekend with my husband. I suffer from ptsd, and part of my challenge is what I experienced in my marriage with an individual that has alcoholism issues. It's hard to raise a child with a partner that suddenly doesn't even come home and finally comes home hung over after being out all night drinking and doing cocaine. Oh, I will be better, I won't etc, and it's the honeymoon again, until it happens again. I tried so hard to be a good mommy for my child, god I loved her so much. One thing she said to me much later was "Dad was always happy go lucky, it was YOU mom that was stressed a lot". Boy, and I sure tried NOT to show my stress around my child too. It's amazing how much they can pick up on.

I get how the OP's son loves this woman and is trying to figure out how to keep things together. Things are ok for a "time" and they went to the water park. Yup, experienced that too. I did not really KNOW what that was back then though. What I do know, is this pattern will not stop until this woman gets sober and genuinely admits she has a problem and actually puts in the effort to change. Loving someone with this problem is EXTREMELY hard. And it can also be very lonely too as their entire life is about this disease.

What stands out to me in this scenario however, is that child being left with a hungover mother. My child never experienced that, I made sure of that.
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Default Feb 24, 2020 at 07:41 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by winter4me View Post
That was my first response, but as the conversation continued I began to feel differently.

When was the last time she was arrested? Being convicted of something doesn't make you a toxic person. And later texts say the kids are fine....and he has not said he fears losing his children this is all third hand...

We really have no information on the father in this case.

And, certainly the mother will not be looking for help from anyone close to her. Perhaps she is the one afraid to leave. I don't know, it's just become so speculative when it sounded clear at first... I am very skeptical when One person is "IT" in a (clearly) complicated family relationship. If this were true, he'd be divorced and have custody of the kids-----if he can show she's an addict, destructive etc...and he is a responsible father.
I actually tend to agree with you as I've read through this thread because what struck me is that the DIL clearly needs help. Addiction is a disease, and she clearly has some mental health disorder going on. If I were the OP, I would take a position of encouraging the whole family into therapy so they can be healthier together instead of trying to drive seeds of wedges between them. The son will figure out on his own in his own time if he wants to stay or go.

I guess I just don't see why the DIL is undeserving of compassion and help. (I know that hasn't been spelled out but that's the vibe I'm catching.) You can't pick who your son loves. If you want to help and be supportive, encourage therapy for him and your DIL to work through their issues.

I'm not painting either one as a saint but judging her is the road to nowhere. Like or dislike, she's who your son has chosen.

How many people here displayed very erratic behavior before getting a diagnosis and help? Would we recommend that the DIL be treated the same way or use our experience to encourage treatment? I'm not absolving her of any wrong doing. She is responsible for her own actions. But, if she has a disorder and clearly has addiction, then she is not in control. And that means she needs help getting treatment.

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Default Mar 05, 2020 at 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Buffy01 View Post
I understand. I would contact social service.
i don't want to make things any more difficult for my son at this point.

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Default Mar 05, 2020 at 10:01 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Have Hope View Post
Quoting the original post here.

"Jane" is no scapegoat. She IS toxic and the poor AP has been exasperated and at her wits end.

She's totally irresponsible, she's a convicted felon, is frequently getting arrested and probably is a drug addict. She neglects the child, has hit her son in the past, lies, and picks fights.

Maybe she has unaddressed mental health issues, but she is certainly toxic to the granddaughter and the OP's son.

And the poor OP's son is probably scared to leave her because he's afraid he won't see his child again... is my guess.

To the OP, I am glad you feel more at peace over this right now.
thanks for your reply. i was at peace for awhile, but of course things have not gotten better, i'm hearing from outside sources, not from my son.

he hasn't really talked to me about what's going on lately, and i'm thinking it's because he knows how i'll react. i've gotten to the point where her name and "hate" are one and the same. and i do not like feeling that, but i can't help what i feel when i know my son is hurting.

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Default Mar 05, 2020 at 10:08 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by winter4me View Post
That was my first response, but as the conversation continued I began to feel differently.
When was the last time she was arrested? Being convicted of something doesn't make you a toxic person. And later texts say the kids are fine....and he has not said he fears losing his children this is all third hand...
We really have no information on the father in this case.
And, certainly the mother will not be looking for help from anyone close to her. Perhaps she is the one afraid to leave. I don't know, it's just become so speculative when it sounded clear at first... I am very skeptical when One person is "IT" in a (clearly) complicated family relationship. If this were true, he'd be divorced and have custody of the kids-----if he can show she's an addict, destructive etc...and he is a responsible father.
i know you don't know me or the situation except for what i've posted, but you have no idea how off track you are. i know being a convicted felon does not mean you are toxic, but there are underlying factors that i've only touched on here that prove she is toxic to whomever she comes in contact with. me included.

she: lies, cheats, does drugs, drinks and mixes drugs to the point where she is incoherent, stays out all night doing god only knows what, gets into fights bad enough to get herself arrested...those are just a few generalized things she does or has done. 10+ years of drama i have dealt with and this is only a drop in the bucket of what me, my son, my family and her family have gone through with this girl. seems kinda toxic to me, no?

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Default Mar 05, 2020 at 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Open Eyes View Post
When there is an individual/parent that has problems with addiction/alcoholism, everyone ends up walking on eggshells around THAT DISEASE. AND, if this woman was out all night drinking or drugging and comes home and the husband goes to work leaving this 2 year old with her? THAT IS CHILD NEGLECT because no way can a mother hung over will be able to give that baby the attention, caring, love it needs and deserves.

The OP's son is a codependent and enabler. To think this relationship is not affecting that child is WRONG too.
Not only that but he is giving this woman that clearly has issues with addiction WAY TOO MUCH power. He needs to go to some alanon meetings, he needs to be educated on the fact that he is a codependent enabler with someone that is unstable due to addiction issues and he needs to also go to adult children of alcoholics so he can hear how this dynamic caused so much DAMAGE in the children that had to grow up with a parent that is an addict. That entire family is living the CYCLE of ADDICTION, period!!
i totally agree with you. i'm thinking maybe i should find a group i can go to to talk about all of this with people in similar situations. any suggestions?

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Default Mar 05, 2020 at 10:19 AM
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Yes Christina, this is true. It can be very hard to be a parent and try to be there for a son or daughter that is engaged in a challenging relationship. It's important the OP be there and even have time with her grandchild because what SHOULD take place is her son's partner seek treatment to help her get sober and on a healthier track instead of continuing to engage in binging/remaining an addict.

This hits home with me in that I am married to a man that is a recovering binge alcoholic. I did not know what that was when I married my husband. I did not realize what I was really dealing with and I really thought my husband was just getting drunk at times due to his friend's influences because his friends all drank and did drugs and they were way worse than my husband. Ofcourse, now there is more information on this challenge compared to almost 40 years ago.

I woke up at 4 this morning, had an upsetting weekend with my husband. I suffer from ptsd, and part of my challenge is what I experienced in my marriage with an individual that has alcoholism issues. It's hard to raise a child with a partner that suddenly doesn't even come home and finally comes home hung over after being out all night drinking and doing cocaine. Oh, I will be better, I won't etc, and it's the honeymoon again, until it happens again. I tried so hard to be a good mommy for my child, god I loved her so much. One thing she said to me much later was "Dad was always happy go lucky, it was YOU mom that was stressed a lot". Boy, and I sure tried NOT to show my stress around my child too. It's amazing how much they can pick up on.

I get how the OP's son loves this woman and is trying to figure out how to keep things together. Things are ok for a "time" and they went to the water park. Yup, experienced that too. I did not really KNOW what that was back then though. What I do know, is this pattern will not stop until this woman gets sober and genuinely admits she has a problem and actually puts in the effort to change. Loving someone with this problem is EXTREMELY hard. And it can also be very lonely too as their entire life is about this disease.

What stands out to me in this scenario however, is that child being left with a hungover mother. My child never experienced that, I made sure of that.
first of all, i am sorry you had gone through this with your husband (i'm assuming you are no longer together?) i too was married to a drinker and cheat and it was no bed of roses for sure. but, like you, i was there, sober, for my child. i was, by no means, the perfect mom, but i tried. and it does worry me about my granddaughter being left alone with this...person, while she is hungover.

my stomach is in knots over it and it's weird how i am experiencing the same sickness in my head and body that i had felt when with my ex husband whenever rumors emerged of him cheating or when he would not come home at night. and it destroys me knowing my son is probably experiencing the same pain.

any suggestions on a support group i could go to to talk to people in similar situations?

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Default Mar 05, 2020 at 10:26 AM
  #59
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I actually tend to agree with you as I've read through this thread because what struck me is that the DIL clearly needs help. Addiction is a disease, and she clearly has some mental health disorder going on. If I were the OP, I would take a position of encouraging the whole family into therapy so they can be healthier together instead of trying to drive seeds of wedges between them. The son will figure out on his own in his own time if he wants to stay or go.

I guess I just don't see why the DIL is undeserving of compassion and help. (I know that hasn't been spelled out but that's the vibe I'm catching.) You can't pick who your son loves. If you want to help and be supportive, encourage therapy for him and your DIL to work through their issues.

I'm not painting either one as a saint but judging her is the road to nowhere. Like or dislike, she's who your son has chosen.

How many people here displayed very erratic behavior before getting a diagnosis and help? Would we recommend that the DIL be treated the same way or use our experience to encourage treatment? I'm not absolving her of any wrong doing. She is responsible for her own actions. But, if she has a disorder and clearly has addiction, then she is not in control. And that means she needs help getting treatment.
very good points. according to her, she has asked my son to go to therapy concerning the problems in their relationship, and supposedly she does go to a therapist for her "mental disorders" but has not admitted an addiction to any substance. i think her use of certain drugs, combined with her mental disorders, plus being in a relationship that just doesn't work (i know it seems i am blaming her for everything, but i do think my son does play a part too), all contributes to her doing what she does.

i don't know how open she would be if i were to offer her help, and the way i am feeling now i don't think i have it in me to offer her a compassionate shoulder to cry on or an understanding ear to listen.

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