Bad Phone Call

And what about this friend, did she grow up with the same life style?

No...her family life was more like the Waltons...more homespun. There were seven kids in her family...her father was a school principal. I loved going to her house, and she loved coming to my house. I mean, between us we had 11 siblings...and several of us were friends. She would go on trips with my family to the city...we'd go to the theater...and I would go with her family on camping trips. It was balanced out. One thing that bonded us was fond childhood memories. We continued to use our childhood nicknames for one another.

Do you think it is possible that she resents that she met her husband through you?

Yes, but she knows she has a problem. Sigh, I think you are absolutely right about the shame part. She is probably scared she might run into someone from the community. It is a small town and gossip travels fast.

Mu ex-husband barely drank at all. He had no addiction problems. But I did go to Alanon because my family had alcoholism. I don't know...I live in a university town. There is no shame attached to addiction recovery here. I loved Alanon. It was so helpful.

Haha. That's funny because sometimes I think about that. But you see she is very enmeshed. They both are. Out in public they look like the model couple. I visited them a couple of years ago. They took me out to fancy restaurants, and laughed and joked around and were charming together. So I guess everything is going on behind closed doors.


Don't you think that is the insidious part of addiction?

Also...her husband doesn't seem like a narcissist at first glance. I think everything is different behind closed doors. She says he is very cruel but frankly I have never seen it. I mean I've known the guy longer then she has and I never saw anything but a very cordial person.

I can't come back from this last - I guess - it was a narcissistic rage attack.

I can't tolerate the dynamics that were the foundation of this friendship.

But I feel very traumatized. If I just think about it I have PTSD...symptoms...like nausea and even kind of shaking. Every time she sent a text I just felt like I couldn't breath.


Covid 19 is causing some really weird things to happen.

Well, she probably feels trapped, may even have some stockholms issues. Terrified to leave him at this point and doesn't know what to do. Perhaps this challenge with Covid has made her see realities that is scaring her. Perhaps her blow up is coming from all her insecurities she doesn't know how to talk about. Sometimes a lack of memory comes from stress, a lot of emotional stress. When that happens a person can be off like you describe. I know at times when I am struggling my husband says things and I just don't remember as I am dissociated and off into my own crap too much. It may be that she blew up with all this frustration and you just happened to be on the other end of the phone. Maybe she feels very abandoned and your conversation just turned into her blowing up. That can happen if a person is so trapped and has no outlet for help.

Oh, these are very helpful comments. You almost made me feel a jolt of compassion. DANGEROUS.

I think understanding is a good thing. And believe me I have thought about these two a lot.

It is confusing. Her husband is a very talented musician. He plays guitar. He also has a Big Band radio show. He is an expert on music from that era. I guess he is extroverted, very friendly, for years has played music at retirement homes and hospitals.


She is totally introverted, neurotic, and high maintenance. I mean she has many fears...of thunder...crowds...flying on airplanes etc. She is also very creative and artistic. I don't know if this means anything but when she was young she was strikingly beautiful. She could have been a model. So she got a lot of attention based on her looks.


Another thing is that as a teen she attempted suicide. In one text she said she hoped Covid 19 would kill her. I told her to get out of her ****ing victim stance. I mean thousands of people are dying of this and I had no patience for her talking like that. She has never attempted suicide as an adult and frankly I don't think she would.

Her behavior was bad, it's totally understandable you are so hurt right now. However, I can say that I myself am in a small town and when I quietly shared my concern about my husband, I faced such a horrible shunning and rejection. I was younger, my daughter was around age six and suddenly all her friends dropped her and one by one the mothers walked away from my brownie troup. So small town shunning is VERY real. However, I did give my husband an ultimatum and he went to his first meeting that night and has been sober for 28 years, never drank ever since that night.

Well, your friend did not do that, or maybe tried and her husband would not stop or she may be afraid of him too, after all who knows what he is like when he drinks.

Maybe she is a bit intimidated by you because you were stronger, stronger than she is after all she stayed and enabled and can't imagine living alone now at this point in her life. Maybe she needed to talk, did not even know how and you focused on her mistake and that was just enough to set her off into this stange very angry behavior that may very well be coming from fear and seeing way too much reality she can't handle.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. All excellent comments, excellent insight.

Thank you.

Well...for one thing she did not call but texted instead...and that started things off badly. Even when she had the impression that I was suddenly uprooted from my apartment she didn't call...she texted, asking "Where are you?" and that seemed weird to me. Texting is kind of a casual thing so it was like saying she didn't care enough to pick up the phone. So I was already irritated.

About the alcoholism I have no idea what it would be like to come out about that in my home town. All I know is I had to get out of that town and did when I was in my 20's. The reason was...that, well, yes...it was a very uptight little burg.

I am so sorry you had to go through what you did. People can be so damn cruel. But I am also glad you had the courage to do it. And that your husband had the courage to go to AA.

The set up with this person has always been that I was the strong one. A strange story is that in highschool both our mothers developed breast cancer. Her mother lived and my mother died. And that was...it was a terrible time...and I can remember she thought I was so strong. So yes, that has been the dynamic.

This is REALLY REALLY dangerous because you are making me feel all kinds of compassion, now.


Well, still, I think I did the right thing. Maybe her rage was kind of like a little kid screaming tantrum. Maybe she did want my attention and when she didn't get it she attacked.

I have studied DBT and there is an interesting insight in there...it is a practice of not creating drama when you want something from someone. Which I guess is hard for not only borderlines..but all of us.


I have started to use this and it does work. Even in simple ways...like if I bring a complaint to my property management company and I am calm they will immediately be helpful.

You have great insights. Plus you remain neutral. You look at a situation and see it from all sides. You are curious. These are very good traits to have when dealing with difficulty.

Ah, now I am sad for her. I also think she will probably try to reconnect. She ALWAYS DOES. Sometimes if she knows I am really angry she will stay away for up to a year. However...I want to keep my distance for one main reason...I really cannot tolerate alcoholism and addiction when the person is not in recovery. That's my deal breaker. I don't want to be anywhere near that. I can't help her. She needs professional help. I told her if she can't afford therapy she could seek out a minister. She was even jealous because my pastor called me this week...and said she wished she had someone like that. At the same time she belongs to no church. It didn't just happen for me out of the blue...I got involved, volunteered, attend services, got to know people.

Darn. She's isolated. Your insight is absolutely correct. But if she can't get help, doesn't want to adjust her attitude, has temper tantrums...she is going to stay isolated.

Hmm, it can even harder if your husband is extroverted, popular and well known to admit there is a problem. I was thinking about how she grew up in a kind of Walton home with a big family and how you describe your big home and the wealth and standing your parents had. Maybe she was always a bit intimidated by that, doesn't matter what she looked like, had insecurities. And she got married young and started a family was possibly a home body and never got to invest in herself via an education like you did. That too can be intimidating and now she is older and no longer has the bloom of her youth and doesn't have an education, and is a timid introvert. That's not how you present, you have more invested in yourself then she does. Her only security is her alcoholic husband.

Sometimes it is not enabling, she probably knows her husband won't give up the alcohol. She probably feels she is in no position to make any kind of demand he change. Your friend is in fact coming from a place of "powerlessness". That can be a terrible place or state of mind to be in, a place that can contribute to feeling very much like you don't want to live anymore. Yet, though she may say it, often she won't get the kind of response that helps, or validates that but instead it can be more of criticism and tones that just make an already awful state even worse.

Maybe her strong charismatic man hero she thought she could feel safe with aint such a haven of safety at all. Admitting that publically in any way or in any alanon room when so timid as you describe can be unspeakable.

Maybe she had a dark secret, being that she was so shy but strikingly beautiful, prime target for rape, sexual abuse. It's surprising what some people carry deep inside them.

wow Dechan I am so sorry.
I relate to this on a milder level. I had a 'best' friend for years who ghosted me a few times with no explanation, after a while I'd see her and everything would be fine & we'd do things together and have a great time...
Then, over the years, it happened again
and I finally just let go...it was hard to do, and I still think of her and have to stop myself from trying just one more time.
Fortunately, the person I spoke of here and I are really on the mend and will be OK---it's the first time this has happened between us. (I know what 'triggered' me but I know better than to react like I did...). Take care of yourself.

My apologies, for not having read this entire thread.

I understand you have no tolerance for this type of behaviour, and rightfully so. However, you mentioned this is your brother, he was out of character, and he confided with you about some troubles he's having with a female acquaintance.

I'm not sure if this was addressed or not, and pardon my bluntness, but where's your compassion? Does he have a history of drugs and alcoholism? It didn't sound like he has a history of lashing out on you.

Maybe contact him again and ask him if he's ok.. that you were surprised he reacted in such a manner because it's totally out of character of his. Tell him it made you concerned he may be under the influence and offer some support? Maybe go with him to the AA meetings as a sister, if applicable (when Covid19 settles). I get you're not a counselor but you really don't need to be in order to empathize with someone who's clearly going through a hard time.

I'm sorry if I've misunderstood this scenario.

No, absolutely not. Met her husband-to-be at age 17, engaged at 18...married at 19. Very protected in that marriage early on. I mean she got attention from everyone. She had such beautiful...more classic...like a painting. She was never very overtly flashy, it was a modest, IDK maybe innocent kind of beauty. No, nothing like that ever happened to her. We both led very protected lives growing up, until I went to college.

You did misunderstand. This is a long, complicated thread. I probably wouldnt read it all unless I was writing it.

My brother and I made contact again by text...and it was obvious we had both moved on. We exchanged more texts with funny pictures, and cheerfulness. If he wants to call me and talk to me about this woman he knows he can.

My brother never went to AA but he got sober using a Buddhist book on addiction I recommended. So we often talked about recovery on the phone. We live thousands of miles away from one another.

I don't feel like confronting him about whether or not he's drinking. It's none of my business.

He knows he can call me anytime. If he wants to talk to me about sobriety issues he knows he can call me. But I am not going to check up on him and handhold. I am not his Mommy. He's a grown *** man, a veteran, former soldier, just hard core. He would never take to hand holding from a female. I actually think the trouble he had with some female was she was interfering in his life and he hates that.

Asking me where is my compassion is quite rude.

You might not agree with how someone handles a situation but to be so judgmental is, in my book, pretty uncool.

Well, okay, maybe, but then if she's not going to do anything then...people are going to get tired of hearing about it and being triangulated and forced to take sides. She wants me to side with her against her husband and I am not going to do that.

She also has options. Her extended family, including in-laws, are totally supportive. If she left him she could go live with any number of relatives. She has enough savings and social security to live on. If she even couch surfed for a year she wouldn't run out of relatives to stay with.

She doesn't want to leave her cozy, secure situation. Her house. She's a hoarder. Not extreme but she likes to be around all her antique collections and such. Her husband does everything. He pays the taxes, buys the cars, handles the finances. Yes, she would have to grow up and learn to do these things on her own. It is do-able. She wants to stay with her Daddy-husband even if he is abusive. However...because we are human...we want to be free. And she is not.

Somehow this has now become all about her. I think she would love the attention...too bad she can't jump on here herself and bask.

I think a point is being lost here. She attacked me like some kind of blood thirsty witch. She said such hurtful things to me she can never be forgiven. That's why I think she is a narcissist. If we resume our friendship she would feel powerful...that she could treat me like crap and that is okay because poor her, she is compromised by her bad marriage.

She has a very soft life...she doesn't have to think about working (like I do) or finding a secure roof to live under (like I do) or paying bills (like I do). She is surrounded by a large extended family. Her sons live nearby. She has a dog. She has a large beautiful house and garden and vast collections of valuables.


This is fine but none of these things should make one superior over someone else.

I am done with talking about her.


If there is a moral to this narrative it is this...people who feel powerless and trapped in bad situations...are dangerous. She is trapped in a bad marriage because she doesn't want financial strain, or shame, or probably does not want the label "divorced." But she is sooooooo unhappy. Well, I don't want to be the one she takes it out on. I don't know if I can emphasize how MEAN her words were. So I think this was a narcissist rage and narcissists can be DEADLY.


I now feel like I am done talking about her. The way to be a friend is not to have rages or temper tantrums and say horrific things.

Words hurt like daggers. This is a Buddhist saying. You can soul murder a person with words. So we should be mindful of our speech.

I am still feeling extremely traumatized and I can't talk about this anymore.

Thank you for all your comments.

The Buddhists also teach that if someone is poisonous and hurtful you should move away from them. We pick up the habits of those we associate with.

Hmmm, just trying to turn over some rocks with you to see why she would suddenly behave so badly like this. If you have saved her ranting texts, once you calm down, sometimes the reason is in what she rants. Not that you are bad or deserve the rants, just what is hurting in her or wrong in her that is about her more than you.

If she is a narcissist, they live in denial and need to twist all their faults onto others. That's what alcholics do too. That's why a big part of their healing and sobriety is learning to admit their wrongs and making amends.

About alcoholics...I have known some who were spiritually healed and got sober...and some who were sober but not spiritually healed.


I didn't save her ranting texts and don't need to...her words are seared into my brain.

The reason why she ranted? I think because she has become unhinged, angry, manipulative and controlling. I think this thread helped me figure everything out. I have called her out twice in the past month on her lying and gaslighting. That's what ignited her narcissistic rage. I upset the status quo. With narcissists you are walking on eggshells around them all the time.


There has been some good stone turning on this thread and I appreciate it.


But I think this friendship is completely over, done, and dusted. After Covid 19 is over I am going to go out and find new friends. A new start might be quite refreshing.