Bad Phone Call

I agree with all you have said here. Thing is, a narcissist doesn't care if they hurt you, they don't care about your soul even. That's what my older sister has been teaching me about them.

OMG We should start a thread just about narcissism.


After I divorced I had a very bad dating experience with a male narcissist. It got very bad...details I will never discuss here. Unbelievable.


However, I would discuss what happened to me afterwards. I went online and found this online course on how to survive narcissistic abuse. It really saved my life. Because until then I really didn't understand it. I think people might agree that in a romantic relationship...the stakes are so high. Romantic and sexual partners can hurt you in very deep ways.


Since then I have not made any new friends who are narcissists. But there are siblings I had to cut off contact with...and some friends I let go of.

I am still confused about this friend because I don't want to see her as a narcissist. But coming out of denial is part of the recovery process.


I think you mentioned Stockholm syndrome earlier. I think in any relationship with a narcissist one ends up with Stockholm syndrome.

Women who are still dating need to be very wary. There are a lot of narcissistic men out there. Our society supports it in men.


I'm not dating now because it wasn't worth the risk. I felt I might not be able to spot a narcissist. Or...worse...that I would be easy prey. I still have a lot of work to do to feel safe.

Dechan, this is a really good article. I have struggled with this when it came to my older sister not wanting to believe she could be so bad, lots of cognitive disonance on my part.

You asked about why your friend stays, well, it could be due to this too. Narcissists actually like to have their victim very dependent on them, they like the power and control it gives them. My older sister took advantage of my aging parents making sure SHE got all the power and control over them and their money, they were both declining into dimentia. When they began to question it, she had already been taking money and behind my back manipulated them to think I was the one taking the money SHE took. I had no idea of the account she had been stealing from. She wanted to keep it that way too.

Narcissistic Victim Syndrome: What The Heck Is That?

My sister most definitely showed me this.

This is a terrible, horrible story. I am so sorry this happened to you. But this is the unbelievable things that happen. Criminal things. This is very common in families. This happened in my family...not with money but with things promised in my father's will. One person kept everything and sold what they didn't want. When I asked them about a certain heirloom my father had promised to leave for me they said, "Oh, that was sold at a yard sale we had."


So as far as I am concerned wills are useless. We should give away most everything while we are of sound mind. I knew a woman who did that. She developed dementia...but before that she gave away everything to friends and neighbors. After she died her narcissistic relatives showed up to find an empty house! It was actually funny. But this is not the usual outcome.

Narcissistic Victim Syndrome: What The Heck Is That?


This was a really good article.


I agree with what you said earlier that a lot of people throw around the word narcissism...but then...a lot of psychological words and phrases have entered our culture, like "on the spectrum," and borderline. I don't think this is altogether a bad thing as it raises awareness. I love how many opportunities have opened up for those who might have a certain diagnosis.


Narcissism is really tough to understand. For instance, when I read this article I see how this how big explosion that happened in my "bad phone call" (which was really a series of texts) came about because I called out my friend on gaslighting me. I even suggested to her that this is what she was doing. I mean I gave her the excuse of having memory problems but she didn't take that. She denied having memory problems. So that simply confirmed that she was gaslighting.


This is a very good article you linked. It really explains the complexity of being a victim of narcissistic abuse. But it takes a long time to apply these truths in our daily lives. As the article states, narcissistic abuse is insidious and often camouflaged.


My friend texted me a list of all the ways she was a good friend. This was such a BS list I had to laugh. She says how she is always "there" for me when she goes for months without even being in touch...this last stretch being 10 months. She never keeps up with what is going on in my life. She says she is supportive when she is actually manipulative.

The hardest thing, and you brought this up earlier, is that when we are trauma bonded it is difficult to get perspective. One thing this person does is she always brings up childhood memories. Since that was a very positive time...she uses nostalgia to keep me hooked.


But because I studied and practiced Buddhism for many years I am more oriented to the "here and now," and don't particularly like staying in the past. Even when the present is difficult, such as now during this period of Covid 19, I prefer to stay in the present, emotionally and mentally, rather than --- let's say trancing --- and yes, dissociating. If we stay in the present there is much to be experienced and learned. Meditation has helped me with this...but a very specific kind of meditation...that is, meditation to stay grounded in the body. (Usually guided meditation...I use some very good guided meditations I find on YouTube.)


So this tactic of hers has weakened and I think she knows it. Every time she brings up something from childhood, like, "Remember when as children we loved to...______" I always reply, "Yeah, but as an adult I love to...______" and I know that pisses her off.

So her laundry list of all her "good deeds" was laughable. However, she does have good taste in gifts and cards, I will give her that. I was thinking of boxing everything up and sending it back to her. But to hell with it, I like the things she's sent me...and will kept everything as compensation for the pain I have endured.

This is where I can have a problem. I learn about the hurt and abuse that created the narcissist to begin with. I happened across this a while ago when I was learning about narcissists where there was a thread called "how bad was it". And then I read about the abuse different individuals faced. I felt so bad for these individuals. The problem that is created is that first they do not have their own true identity, then they tend to hurt others with their need for control and their need for a sense of superiority.

Also, if it's not important to them, it's not important or of value. They find it uncomfortable to sit with "your" feelings, yet they need you to sit with THEIR feelings. They need constant nurturing, but they themselves are NOT nurturing. Nothing runs right unless it runs according to how THEY need it to run. They don't like to share either, they need to be the center of attention and run the show. You better notice every damn thing they did otherwise you are WORTHLESS and SELFISH. Ugh and when they walk in, they don't see what you did do, they see everything you didn't do.

Obsession with one’s childhood memories helps person to stay stuck and not show growth and not take responsibility for adulthood tasks.

I am not surprised your friend was mad when you try to talk about “today” rather than endlessly rehashing childhood memories.

Staying in the present and seeing herself as an adult means she has to be responsible for things she isn’t taking care of, responsible for the way she acts and responsibilities she doesn’t take. Seeing herself forever as a 2-year old playing in a sand box absolves her of any obligations to ever address her present life.

It’s not a surprise that she acts like a child with her temper tantrums, it doesn’t sound like she is fully grown emotionally and mentally

Saying that, of course remembering our childhoods (either good or bad or both) is very important. But when it becomes extreme preoccupation, then it’s an issue like in your friend’s case

It could be that she has personality disorder, but in
addition she sounds immature with her lack of responsibility and her tantrums

Yes, I agree and I did not know much about narcissists, sigh...there are so many articles about them now too.

However, what I have noticed is how often people choose to label others who they don't agree with in some way as a narcissist. That's not such a healthy thing to do.

A person may actually be struggling with NAD, narcissistic abuse disorder or complex ptsd due to facing a lot of narcissistic abuse. A difficult person can simply be a person with adhd that can be quick and impatient and prefer quick answers or solutions and lack patience and express anger due to frustration and have a tendency to invade your space and have difficulty understanding boundaries or simply forgetting boundaries. Someone can experience social anxiety issues which can be hard to overcome or manage. Someone with ADHD likes to have the control, lacks patience and isn't one who can sit and listen for too long. It's how their brain is wired and I know it all too well due to having experienced so many of them in my life. I know for myself, my brother, husband and daughter prefer "I, 2, 3" and they are off to the races to the next "1,2,3" problem. You have to make sure you keep conversations to the minimum which is typiclally about 5 minutes. And they interupt A LOT and can take over conversations. And they like to be short and blunt which can trigger people and they can be noisy as that's how my husband is, he even interupts what's on TV. LOL

So my point is not everything boils down to narcissistic personality disorder.

I looked up borderline traits as a refresher...I guess some but not all apply. Some of covert narcissism apply. But hell, I'm not a doctor I can't diagnose her. Anyway, that's something she does that irritates me. She calls one of her brothers autistic, a sister borderline...she tries to act smart like she knows...that's a narcissistic trait, to act like you are an authority.

I am always interested in people who are unnaturally attached to their childhoods. I find that the people in my hometown who never left are kind of like that. I left in my 20's...have lived in many different places, which entails making whole new sets of friends and memories. So for me childhood seems very distant. Same with highschool. With the creation of FB so many high school girlfriends (I went to an all girls school) came out of the closet and got in touch with me. But I really did not feel like I could relate as the only thing we had in common was going to a boring, strict girl's academy (like military school) as teens.

But I did invite this friend out to visit me here in the mountain state where I live...twice...in past years...and she didn't respond. I felt it would be a way to make "present memories"...hiking, exploring, antiquing (her thing) and just generally doing what adults do to holiday together. She never said why she didn't respond. She does have a phobia about flying. Sigh. So high-maintenance. The last time she visited it was thunderstorm season here and she totally freaked out. Scared of thunder. So high-maintenance.

I think this is a good point and what I try to advise is for us to always focus on the behavior and how it impacted us (made us feel), and work from there. Labeling someone as this or that disorder turns them into an "other" and then there is little way to work through the problem and have conflict resolution. On the reverse, labeling someone can make you excuse their bad behavior and accept it over and over because "they can't help it."

Dechan, regardless of what's wrong with this person, their behavior negatively affects you and you are perfectly justified to walk away from them. I know it's an old friendship but it sounds like it's an old friendship that has always been toxic. If time is the only reason to hold on then...that reminds me of the argument people make about me having a relationship with my bio father, who abused me. Because he's my "father"...um, no... It sounds like you have tried to resolve conflict with this person numerous times and rather than engage in conflict resolution and addressing BOTH of y'all's feelings, she is just escalating this into how you've been wrong always and always will be wrong and the only solution she will accept is a 100% admission of guilt and apology.

You know, it's totally possible to make friends at an older age. I'm kind of excited right now because I met a play date friend for my dogs and we are becoming good buddies. This is my first non-work related friend in a while. I think it's just putting yourself out there and being authentically you, not pretending to not be who you are...people respond to it. And then of course, moving at the pace that is natural, not divulging too much too fast to someone you don't know, etc.

It's really not too late to ever make good friends you can trust who don't treat you this way. I think it's like the abusers of the world who try to teach us that we can't survive without them. With all you've survived through your divorce, etc., you sound very resilient. I don't think you need this old friend weighing you down. And I'm not knocking old friends; but this old friend sounds hostile and unhealthy for you.

So, for whatever that's worth, you don't have to justify ending a friendship for your own health and well being. You aren't bad because you don't like someone.

I think narcissism is very distinct in one regard. If you have spent time with someone and afterwards you feel depressed and kind of physically unwell...you have probably been interacting with a narcissist. Narcissists are MEAN. My friend could be MEAN. I knew this but kept making excuses...like it was from stress etc. It did bother me. This time she ripped her mask off and all I could say was, "When did you become such a witch?" (did not want to use the "b" word) but she could have answered, "I always was and you just would not see it clearly for what it was."


A person can have a personality disorder...and be frustrated and/or irritated...but they probably won't be mean. I had a neighbor in my last apartment complex. She had a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia. This is a very serious disorder. I got to know her and her roommate, too. He was legally blind. This pair...they were the sweetest most charming pair (not a couple just roommates) so generous and sensitive and funny. So that's what I am saying...I just loved this girl but her roommate said she could get very angry and irritable.

I think narcissism is distinct in that it is injurious to everyone. Many in our society do have narcissistic traits. Many people are reflecting a narcissistic culture.

Wow what an interesting observation. Very few of my old friends stayed behind in our hometown and the rest moved cities and countries. The very few that stayed behind are quite preoccupied with childhood and school memories, and those who moved away aren’t. I never thought about it. I think by physically not moving away, some people don’t move on emotionally either. Wow. Interesting

I heard of people who never fly. How do people get around not flying? You can only drive so much and so far. Thunder? Unless maybe lighting struck her house. It struck my brother’s house years ago, it ruined most of their appliances and electronics because everything was on as everyone was home . I guess they say it doesn’t strike twice but he was a little worried for a bit if it’s going to happen again.

I have low tolerance for high maintenance people. High maintenance is a luxury most of us can’t afford. I do understand having true diagnosed phobias and OCD of course.

Your friend does sound kind of stuck in her life and possibly coddled by everyone, but she could still at least be nice!!

All good points. I am so happy you came back to share more insights.Thanks.


You know...here is the thing with toxic people. They are like bad pennies. They keep showing back up. And I have been in a very vulnerable period of my life. That's when it is hardest to deal with difficult people.


I have had many good friends over the years. In fact an old friend I made in adulthood just sent me a message on FB and it was glorious to hear from her. She is an artist and I still have a painting she did for me hanging over my bed. Another friend from adulthood is my horse teacher. I just emailed her and asked her if she needed an extra hand with her horses at this time.

I wouldn't be on Psych Central if I wasn't having a really hard time right now. I AM struggling to get to the next level.

I haven't made any new friends in a couple of years because I have really been struggling with mental health issues. And it is difficult once isolated to get back out there.


But every time you talk about making new friends it makes me feel excited. I did try a couple of meetups but nothing came of it. I trained for a 5K and ran it but did not make any new friends. I volunteered at my church...and although it is comforting...I didn't make any friends.


I think I need to be patient.

When people use "blood" as a reason to be bonded with someone abusive...and this frequently happens...I realize it is insidious and STUPID. My family of origin is pretty toxic and I can't really be in touch with everyone. I had to completely cut off certain siblings. So yeah, so stupid to suggest they reconnect with an abusive parent.

I don't know if its harder to make friends when one is older. I never pay much attention to age. In fact when I was young I had much older friends. I like having friends of all ages. I just need to get back into the friend-making space.

I have been the same way: tried many different ways of making friends, but not really clicking in different events. I guess my point is to just keep putting yourself out there because eventually you will click with someone.

I have made good friends in a few different ways. I suppose they all pretty much originated online (as in I found a group online and showed up). I met my best friend on PC. I have a few other good IRL friends through PC, but that took time and developing trust. My new friend I met through Nextdoor and we are just becoming friends but we meet up for playdates with our dogs, but it's nice and relaxing and we talk and chat while the dogs play. I've got a few good friends I've made through work. One of my close friends is an elderly woman I lived next door to for a few years, and we became close rescuing dogs together.

But while I have lots of "friends" who are friends on Facebook, I'd say less than a dozen are "close." Like I can tell them I'm having a flashback or panic attack and they'll sit with me through it. Or they know why I have PTSD and not just that I have it. My less close friends I value as well because they share humor and fun, but I know we don't have that level of intimacy as my close friends. And that's okay. You can only be emotionally intimate with so many people. Emotional intimacy is work.

I have one friend, for example, who met me at my lowest. And she didn't really know me that well, but she had struggled with mental illness (she had daughters my age and was older) so she actually watched my service dog while I was inpatient and brought him to visit me, brought me stuff in the hospital, and barely knew me really, but we still keep touch to this day. We often send each other messages. I really value her as a friend even though we don't really talk and we just follow each other now on Facebook. Every now and then I remind her how much her being there for me without really knowing me meant to me.

So, I guess my point is that I'm wary of people who have loads of "close" friends because I just don't really see how any individual has the kind of time to cultivate that kind of emotional intimacy with that many people. But finding people you can trust to be emotionally intimate with takes a lot of tries. So keep putting yourself out there because you will click with someone. And these relationships develop depth over time, not over night, so someone you may not feel super close to on the first meeting, on the 10th meeting, might feel like they can be a good friend.

It's kind of funny because developing friendships can be just as challenging as developing romantic relationships, lol, at least when you're an adult. As a kid or even younger, like under 30, you just make friends with people in your class or peer network. As you get older the peer network gets muddied.

I think trying those meetups and other volunteering events is great and you should keep doing it. Eventually you will click with someone and grab coffee and chat, and then coffee after volunteering will be a thing, and then lunch, and then movie night, etc.

I want to thank EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has commented and supported me and helped me through this. Frankly I don't know what I have done without Psych Central. THANK YOU GUYS!

That this happened during Covid 19 just pisses me off. I mean it is a time I am stuck home alone and isolated. I can't use any of my usual distractions and comforters. Saturday usually finds me out running around, going to the library, and any number of places.


This is not the time for people to be harassing one another! In face, I was pretty calm until she started texting. All I can think is she is highly stressed in lock down with her abusive husband...and she's like a witch bursting into flames. Haha. Sorry. I use humor to cope.

Everyone here has been so comforting and helpful.

My (now not) friend was even jealous of my online communities. She said, "I wouldn't know how to do that." It is kind of hard to believe people don't know how to connect online. I am all over the place and...truly...it can really help us stay sane in hard times.

Love this community and with your shared wisdom and insights...you are lifting me up out of this toxic scene. So kind, thoughtful, generous...that describes y'all.

Dechan, it's likely that she is passing whatever abuse she is getting from her husband on to you. Not saying it's okay, but just an observation. Isolation and lockdown is hard on people in so many ways. But her going off like that? I can understand a harsh word or two and then an apology, but she blew up your phone with texts...that's just...not right...and there's clearly a mental issue there. Whether it's NPD rage, BPD rage, or whatever kind of rage, it's almost like a psychotic behavior, you know?

I hope she has at least stopped sending you nasty texts. If she is still sending nasty texts, whatever you do, don't respond. It just fuels the fire. She'll eventually give up when she realizes she can't get a rise out of you.

but she could still at least be nice!!
HAHA How true.

Wow, I guess we hit on something! When I talked with this person, or my brother (who never left except for advanced education) they will bring up a name of someone who we knew in childhood...and it is such a shock to hear the name. But you also need to realize that a lot of people never left...so all these "kids" from childhood are now adults in the community...and getting old, too. Many married one another. Both my brother and this person married at 19 to their high school sweethearts.

So, yeah, it is almost like a cultural difference.

My now-non friend always accused me of being "distant" but frankly I find it difficult to keep up with that past life...many decades past. I would say I have had three very distinct eras of my life since then...and there are people from all of those periods to keep up with. I actually don't go on FB because I don't want any more messages from people who are bored and just looking up and messaging everyone.

Here is something else that is true about narcissists because I have experienced this before. If they know the end is near and you are no longer responding to their tricks...they will pull out the stops and use everything they know about you to hurt you.

I haven't gone into the things she said...but they were deal-breakers. That is what I said to her. That she killed the friendship because there was no way I could come back from that.

And narcissists will do that...they will keep pushing the boundaries...because it means control. But if they realize they have gone too far...they rage. This is usually when violence happens in romantic relationships where a narcissist realizes they have lost control.

So the things she said...really wounded me...really struck at my heart. And I actually feel wounded. Like I am hearing these things in my sleep. And that is the biggest problem. I even thought about buying some booze...and I don't drink! I bought Halo ice cream instead! And lots of Easter peeps. And some non-alcoholic beer because the hops in it is calming.

THIS IS THE LAST NARCISSIST I WILL HAVE IN MY LIFE.

I think it is positive when we get rid of narcissists who have been lingering in the corners of our lives. Another thing...narcissists act like they are entitled to the front-and-center positions when really they are just taking up space that is needed for new friends.


The texts have stopped but there is this spooky calm. It's always like that with narcissists. They will use silence as a tactic. They haven't fully gone away. I have my landline telephone turned off but it rang a few times today - it doesn't have caller ID. I am taking a break from communicating with anyone. My son knows to call me on my cell phone.


I am really sorry I read her previous texts as she said such destructive stuff. I kept texting her saying just end the friendship I am fine with that but stop sending poison...but...that's the narcissistic rage...

It is healthy to clear one's life of toxic people...it is kind of like cleaning house.

I imagine all kinds of relational drama is going on during lock down.

I did not stay in my home town either, I moved away and moved on and met different people.

Did you ride horses? If so you may do well getting back into being around horses where you can meet people that are into horses and animals. It would be good for you to groom and spend time with them and they do love to be groomed and fussed over.