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Default Apr 09, 2020 at 03:38 PM
  #21
I found myself doing something out of character yesterday and it hurt a dear friend...
no drugs involved....just unexpected misdirected anger...
we have spoken and things are "ok" but I feel like crap and I know she is still feeling confused and hurt (this is a friend of over 50yrs)---

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Default Apr 09, 2020 at 05:28 PM
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Default Apr 09, 2020 at 10:31 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by winter4me View Post
I found myself doing something out of character yesterday and it hurt a dear friend...
no drugs involved....just unexpected misdirected anger...
we have spoken and things are "ok" but I feel like crap and I know she is still feeling confused and hurt (this is a friend of over 50yrs)---


I am sorry to hear this. However, it is uncanny because this happened to me today, too. But the other way around.

I am really happy to hear you patched things up. The following is a story about what can happen when old friends take one another for granted. I guess it is a bit of a warning for others who read this thread.


I have a friend of over 50 years, too. Met as children first day of first grade.

She has "gaslighted" me twice since the new year. She says that I said things I didn't say. Today she texted me and asked, "Where are you?" and I am like, "What do you mean? I am at home."

Then she texts that I said I had to be out of my apt. by 4/1. This is crazy. I have a lease until Sept. 2020. I texted her that she must have misheard me on the phone or misread a text. She continued to text me saying yes I repeatedly told her I had to move out by 4/1.

I started to get upset. I texted her that I was worried about her because this is the second time she did this since the new year. I said maybe her new medications were affecting her memory and if she found this happening more maybe she should contact her doctor. I also added that alcohol can affect short-term memory. I don't drink but recently she's started to drink for the first time in her life - stress induced drinking.


Well...then all hell broke loose! Even though I said I couldn't text anymore because I had work to do she texted me all afternoon...long, terrible, insulting texts. It was insane but finally I got angry. She completely ignored my boundaries. I told her to stop insulting me. Then she just tore into me and said unforgivable things in long, ranting texts.


I called her and left a voice message. I said I didn't want to text I wanted to talk on the phone. She just kept texting calling me names, tearing down my character, and twisting a lot of truths into untruths.

I just thought, "She's gone and done it. I can't come back from this." I called her again and left a message for her to call so we could at least end the friendship on the phone.

Nothing.

I left her a text saying that maybe she wanted to do this for a long time, and that if a friendship doesn't meet her needs she should let it go.

No response from her.


We've been friends forever. She has always been high-maintenance. She was high-maintenance at 6 years old...and was the same high-maintenance person who turned 60. I have have always loved her totally, including human vulnerabilities.

But I can't come back from the things she said to me. Did she mean to end the friendship? If so, fine, but why do it in such a violent, harming way?


I feel...completely gutted. She did something like this twice before in the last five years and I built bridges back to the friendship. But I guess its three strikes she's out. I won't be building any more bridges.

I know I am serious about this as I unfriended her on Facebook...something I have never done before. I feel like something has died in my life. I feel like I have PTSD from the things she said to me. When you know a person for 50 years they have a lot of ammunition if they want to hurt you.

Guys, if you want to preserve a lifelong friendship...an apology is the golden key. One thing I have come to know about this friend is...she NEVER apologizes. So that's it for me. It's a two-way street. I feel like she crossed over into the wrong lane and hit me head on. I actually feel physically injured.

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Default Apr 09, 2020 at 11:01 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by DechanDawa View Post
I am sorry to hear this. However, it is uncanny because this happened to me today, too. But the other way around.

I am really happy to hear you patched things up. The following is a story about what can happen when old friends take one another for granted. I guess it is a bit of a warning for others who read this thread.


I have a friend of over 50 years, too. Met as children first day of first grade.

She has "gaslighted" me twice since the new year. She says that I said things I didn't say. Today she texted me and asked, "Where are you?" and I am like, "What do you mean? I am at home."

Then she texts that I said I had to be out of my apt. by 4/1. This is crazy. I have a lease until Sept. 2020. I texted her that she must have misheard me on the phone or misread a text. She continued to text me saying yes I repeatedly told her I had to move out by 4/1.

I started to get upset. I texted her that I was worried about her because this is the second time she did this since the new year. I said maybe her new medications were affecting her memory and if she found this happening more maybe she should contact her doctor. I also added that alcohol can affect short-term memory. I don't drink but recently she's started to drink for the first time in her life - stress induced drinking.


Well...then all hell broke loose! Even though I said I couldn't text anymore because I had work to do she texted me all afternoon...long, terrible, insulting texts. It was insane but finally I got angry. She completely ignored my boundaries. I told her to stop insulting me. Then she just tore into me and said unforgivable things in long, ranting texts.


I called her and left a voice message. I said I didn't want to text I wanted to talk on the phone. She just kept texting calling me names, tearing down my character, and twisting a lot of truths into untruths.

I just thought, "She's gone and done it. I can't come back from this." I called her again and left a message for her to call so we could at least end the friendship on the phone.

Nothing.

I left her a text saying that maybe she wanted to do this for a long time, and that if a friendship doesn't meet her needs she should let it go.

No response from her.


We've been friends forever. She has always been high-maintenance. She was high-maintenance at 6 years old...and was the same high-maintenance person who turned 60. I have have always loved her totally, including human vulnerabilities.

But I can't come back from the things she said to me. Did she mean to end the friendship? If so, fine, but why do it in such a violent, harming way?


I feel...completely gutted. She did something like this twice before in the last five years and I built bridges back to the friendship. But I guess its three strikes she's out. I won't be building any more bridges.

I know I am serious about this as I unfriended her on Facebook...something I have never done before. I feel like something has died in my life. I feel like I have PTSD from the things she said to me. When you know a person for 50 years they have a lot of ammunition if they want to hurt you.

Guys, if you want to preserve a lifelong friendship...an apology is the golden key. One thing I have come to know about this friend is...she NEVER apologizes. So that's it for me. It's a two-way street. I feel like she crossed over into the wrong lane and hit me head on. I actually feel physically injured.
Forgive me, Dechan, but I find you, like myself and many of us here, forgave this person over and over when she SHOWED you who she was. I think you should be done with her. She has shown you who she is. Why build bridges with someone who doesn't apologize, doesn't even talk about the conflict, and then does it again?

Please understand, I'm not blaming you or anything like that. I do this too. People show me blatantly who they are, and maybe because I try to see the best in people and see who they could be instead of just who they are okay being, I let them hurt me over and over and over again, all the while thinking I'm the person who is wrong or bad.

Please stop letting this person hurt you and upset you. Life is too short to be allowing people who clearly don't care how you feel back into your life.

You deserve better.

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Default Apr 09, 2020 at 11:13 PM
  #25
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Forgive me, Dechan, but I find you, like myself and many of us here, forgave this person over and over when she SHOWED you who she was. I think you should be done with her. She has shown you who she is. Why build bridges with someone who doesn't apologize, doesn't even talk about the conflict, and then does it again?

Please understand, I'm not blaming you or anything like that. I do this too. People show me blatantly who they are, and maybe because I try to see the best in people and see who they could be instead of just who they are okay being, I let them hurt me over and over and over again, all the while thinking I'm the person who is wrong or bad.

Please stop letting this person hurt you and upset you. Life is too short to be allowing people who clearly don't care how you feel back into your life.

You deserve better.





YES YES YES AND YES. Every single word you wrote was truth. I only recently figured out that she never apologizes. I think maybe she is covert narcissist but I don't really know.


Today was a real eye opener because she kept texting me and attacking my character, my behavior, my life! Now ordinarily I would probably have said something like, "She's scared because of Covid 19. She doesn't mean it."

But today she was dripping in vitriolic blood!

I feel like I must confess when she wouldn't return my phone calls I left her a message and told her to **** off. THIS IS NOT LIKE ME.


I mean my brother just did this to me and I got angry. But my brother didn't attack me. He just swore at me and hung up. That's like a little nip compared to today's bloodbath.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR REPLY. I absolutely needed to hear this. I still feel...almost like someone ripped off an arm or a leg. She knows how to push my buttons.. But this time she pressed the nuclear reactor explosion button.

I SO WANT TO MAKE NEW FRIENDS AFTER LOCK DOWN IS OVER. I feel really inspired to go out and try to meet people

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Default Apr 09, 2020 at 11:21 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by DechanDawa View Post
YES YES YES AND YES. Every single word you wrote was truth. I only recently figured out that she never apologizes. I think maybe she is covert narcissist but I don't really know.


Today was a real eye opener because she kept text me and attacking my character, my behavior, my life! Now ordinarily I would probably have said something like, "She's scared because of Covid 19. She doesn't mean it."

But today she was dripping in vitriolic blood!

I feel like I must confess when she would return my phone calls I left her a message and told her to **** of. THIS IS NOT LIKE ME.


I mean my brother just did this to me and I got angry. But my brother didn't attack me. He just swore at me and hung up. That's like a little nip compared to today's bloodbath.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR REPLY. I absolutely needed to hear this. I still feel...almost like someone ripped off an arm or a leg. She knows how to push my buttons.. But this time she pressed the nuclear reactor explosion button.

I SO WANT TO MAKE NEW FRIENDS AFTER LOCK DOWN IS OVER. I feel really inspired to go out and try to meet people
Oh, I'm glad you understood my meaning. I wasn't sure if I would come off the way I meant.

I'm glad it helped.

I am also looking forward to getting out after this thing eases up. The world is going to be a different place but I haven't seen any human beings but the delivery people in-person in weeks!

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Default Apr 09, 2020 at 11:31 PM
  #27
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Oh, I'm glad you understood my meaning. I wasn't sure if I would come off the way I meant.

I'm glad it helped.

I am also looking forward to getting out after this thing eases up. The world is going to be a different place but I haven't seen any human beings but the delivery people in-person in weeks!





Yeah, I got EVERY SINGLE WORD you wrote...probably because I was shocked out of denial. I just feel gutted and sad.

I agree the world is going to be different...and maybe in exciting ways. Maybe other people are going through this, too. Maybe romantic partners are breaking up. I will be looking for a new best gal pal.


Thank you again. You're spouting a lot of wisdom while in lock down! Ah, maybe its your dogs...they are comforting you and giving you the space to be open, and direct, and empathic. My dog always did that for me. Frankly I think my dog made me a better person. Does that sound weird? I so miss her.


I have also been thinking about getting a new dog. It has been several years since my dog died and I feel like she is barking at me from dog heaven, saying, get another one because...why not?

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Default Apr 09, 2020 at 11:37 PM
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Yeah, I got EVERY SINGLE WORD you wrote...probably because I was shocked out of denial. I just feel gutted and sad.

I agree the world is going to be different...and maybe in exciting ways. Maybe other people are going through this, too. Maybe romantic partners are breaking up. I will be looking for a new best gal pal.


Thank you again. You're spouting a lot of wisdom while in lock down! Ah, maybe its your dogs...they are comforting you and giving you the space to be open, and direct, and empathic. My dog always did that for me. Frankly I think my dog made me a better person. Does that sound weird? I so miss her.


I have also been thinking about getting a new dog. It has been several years since my dog died and I feel like she is barking at me from dog heaven, saying, get another one because...why not?
My dogs definitely are keeping me sane right now. I was doing yoga tonight and I was in downward dog and the little one came underneath me and started licking my face! He seems to think that yoga time is cuddle time. Lol.

Get a dog. Life isn't complete without a dog.

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Primary Dx: C-PTSD and Severe Chronic Treatment Resistant Major Depressive Disorder
Secondary Dx: Generalized Anxiety Disorder with mild Agoraphobia.

Meds I've tried: Prozac, Zoloft, Celexa, Effexor, Remeron, Elavil, Wellbutrin, Risperidone, Abilify, Prazosin, Paxil, Trazadone, Tramadol, Topomax, Xanax, Propranolol, Valium, Visteril, Vraylar, Selinor, Clonopin, Ambien

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Default Apr 09, 2020 at 11:46 PM
  #29
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My dogs definitely are keeping me sane right now. I was doing yoga tonight and I was in downward dog and the little one came underneath me and started licking my face! He seems to think that yoga time is cuddle time. Lol.

Get a dog. Life isn't complete without a dog.




That story...that's what I mean! SOOOOOO CUTE! My dog was tiny and had a heart of gold. I am also a person who grieves a long time...usually 5 to 7 years. But now I am ready to move on. People keep sending me pictures of their dogs...and it is like all the dogs have become lockdown canine counselors! (They are probably just filled with glee at all the extra contact.)

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Default Apr 10, 2020 at 12:26 AM
  #30
I am so sorry you experienced all that Dechan, it sounds like this woman always just used you and you have such a kind heart you did not realize it because that's not how you are. What you finally learned is you were nice to someone who doesn't really care about you or really even knew you at all. Recently people have shown me things, shown me their true selves, no true compassion but instead just went off in rages. A friend would never do that, behave the way you have shared. The fact that you feel gut wrenched is proof that this woman was not nice, a nice person doesn't leave a long time friend feeling the way you do. She just used your kindness and that's what toxic people do. And they will NEVER admit it either. That's a shallow person and some people are like that Dechan. Don't make any more excuses for her.

And I will bet you gave that dog you had a wonderful happy life too. Dogs appreciate "love", that's why they are theraputic and often the best of friends.

And the reason why I asked you the question I did was because I think you did what you did because you have a good heart, you feel for people and like to help them find and feel a sense of peace. One has to be careful when they have that kind of heart, when someone doesn't appreciate it and behaves the way you experienced, it can hurt.

Sometimes, when we experience something like that, it actually can be used in a POSITIVE WAY. You don't see that right now because you still hurt, but when you find healing you can help others do the same. Give yourself time to heal than figure out how you might help someone else that has that hurt. You can still be a healer, title or not.

Last edited by Open Eyes; Apr 10, 2020 at 12:49 AM..
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Default Apr 10, 2020 at 01:37 AM
  #31
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I am so sorry you experienced all that Dechan, it sounds like this woman always just used you and you have such a kind heart you did not realize it because that's not how you are. What you finally learned is you were nice to someone who doesn't really care about you or really even knew you at all. Recently people have shown me things, shown me their true selves, no true compassion but instead just went off in rages. A friend would never do that, behave the way you have shared. The fact that you feel gut wrenched is proof that this woman was not nice, a nice person doesn't leave a long time friend feeling the way you do. She just used your kindness and that's what toxic people do. And they will NEVER admit it either. That's a shallow person and some people are like that Dechan. Don't make any more excuses for her.

And I will bet you gave that dog you had a wonderful happy life too. Dogs appreciate "love", that's why they are theraputic and often the best of friends.

And the reason why I asked you the question I did was because I think you did what you did because you have a good heart, you feel for people and like to help them find and feel a sense of peace. One has to be careful when they have that kind of heart, when someone doesn't appreciate it and behaves the way you experienced, it can hurt.

Sometimes, when we experience something like that, it actually can be used in a POSITIVE WAY. You don't see that right now because you still hurt, but when you find healing you can help others do the same. Give yourself time to heal than figure out how you might help someone else that has that hurt. You can still be a healer, title or not.





I should rename this thread TWO BAD PHONE CALLS. Except she's texting. I can't block her because I have an old phone that won't block texts. Every time I look over at my phone (I turned off the ringer) there's a new text from her. No one and I mean no one has ever ripped me to shreds like this. (Not even my ex-husband when we divorced. He gave me an inlaid Hawaiian ukulele as a divorce gift when we signed the papers! There was never this kind of cruelty.) I keep texting her and saying if she didn't like me anymore and wanted to end the friendship why not just say that?

She's making me feel like a pile of crap and I don't know why. I told her, stop texting, its Good Friday...lets have some sacred space.

Her husband is an alcoholic. She feels too superior to go to Alanon...and she just enables him and complains. I did tell her I did not want to be triangulated with her and him and that's what she does every phone call. She accused me of distancing and I told her that was partly why. I don't want to hear her badmouth him. He could be in AA. She could be in Alanon. They've been married over 40 years and all they do is torture each other.

I guess she is a narcissist. I just didn't see it. I am in the devalue and discard phase, I guess. She did this to her sister who is a former nun and about the sweetest person on earth. (This was recent.)

I am trying to see this psychologically but I can't. I cant just turn her into a lab specimen. She was my friend. I am crying. I am so sad.

I asked her when did she become such a witch? We don't live near one another. She's always sending me cards and gifts. I don't picture her as a witch. I pictured her as...a gardener with a cute dog, sweet grandkids...IDK...a nice lady. Her mother was a Saint. Like...a real one. So I guess I always thought of her as her mother's daughter.

In her texts she's going back five and ten years...saying all I have done is made bad decisions...etc. I am feeling myself developing a full blown case of PTSD. She is taking every thing in my life and trashing it.

Am I supposed to defend myself? I refuse. The last five years have been extremely bad. That leaves a lot of decades of other stuff.

ABOUT THE FUTURE: Today I sent a letter to my old mentor and boss. I am hoping we can reconnect. I want her advice. I hope she will be willing to help me in my efforts to re-establish my career. Of course I am nervous. I don't know the outcome. But I reached out.

I also wrote an email to my church saying I wanted to volunteer after COVID 19 is over to show my gratitude for them helping me out with bills. I listed all my skills. I gardened there before but now I have asthma and can't...however I have other skills. I want to turn this into a POSITIVE experience...but right now I feel so betrayed. Maybe it is a good contemplation for this holy day of all days. "They know not what they do."

I also once worked with therapy horses and I have been thinking about calling my cherished horse teacher and seeing if she could use some help. I think this could be "essential work" -- throwing hay...even if there are no classes at this time.



I need new, immediate healing activities.

I truly feel like this person has taken a knife and ripped my guts to shreds.

It's ironic I started this thread about my brother. All has been forgiven there and we have been merrily texting one another, sending dog pix...all cheerful stuff.

I know I am going to wake up to more texts...from that friend turned frenemy. I will delete them without reading. I just can't take it anymore. Especially on Good Friday. This is truly a major major dark surprise and I will never forget it happened during Covid 19 lockdown. There is absolutely nothing in the world worse than narcissistic abuse. I think that is what has happened here. I am shocked.

(Lest people think I only get BAD calls I had an amazing two hour phone conversation today with my adult son. )

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Last edited by DechanDawa; Apr 10, 2020 at 02:17 AM..
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Default Apr 10, 2020 at 06:50 AM
  #32
Omg I cannot believe this person. She sounds infuriating.

It could of course be confabulation (false memories due to alcohol abuse or other mental issues) BUT I believe these kind of false/pretend memories (saying that you said something when you didn’t) are used to keep others off balance and out of sorts, some type of manipulation/drama seeking in hopes to start drama with you. Or I’ve read somewhere that deeply insecure people make stuff up to elevate their importance. But I’d think they’d make stuff up about themselves, not you! It’s infuriating.

My sister in law does it (no drinking involved). Routinely, repeatedly, to a lot of people. She does it to me pretty much every time I see her. Topics are usually innocent enough so it’s unclear what’s the agenda. It only results in me keeping my distance.

“Oh your husband can’t attend because he works that weekend, but you said he stopped working weekends (why would I say that???). Oh your daughter still works at that place, you said she quit (why would I say that???). Endless examples

It’s ongoing. She does it to my brother (her husband) and her kids too. She does it to my dad and it makes him question his memory (he is elderly but his memory is intact).

The only thing she accomplishes is that we all, including my nephews-her kids, distance ourselves from her and avoid her at all costs when we can. Well maybe that was her goal

There might be all kind of reasons why people do this. But good for you not putting up with it. God idea deleting her texts without reading. She clearly just can’t stop! She can’t address her personal issues with alcohol or whatever other drama she has in her household and she takes it out on you. In this trying time people ought to support each other or leave each other alone if can’t offer support. Who wants drama NOW?

I am glad you had great talk with your son. Excellent. Hope this so called friend leaves you alone. The last thing people need now is someone tearing us down. And honestly if she doesn’t stop maybe you need to threaten her with legal actions. This is harassment. Maybe threats of legal actions will stop her from texting you.
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Default Apr 10, 2020 at 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by divine1966 View Post
Omg I cannot believe this person. She sounds infuriating.

It could of course be confabulation (false memories due to alcohol abuse or other mental issues) BUT I believe these kind of false/pretend memories (saying that you said something when you didn’t) are used to keep others off balance and out of sorts, some type of manipulation/drama seeking in hopes to start drama with you. Or I’ve read somewhere that deeply insecure people make stuff up to elevate their importance. But I’d think they’d make stuff up about themselves, not you! It’s infuriating.

My sister in law does it (no drinking involved). Routinely, repeatedly, to a lot of people. She does it to me pretty much every time I see her. Topics are usually innocent enough so it’s unclear what’s the agenda. It only results in me keeping my distance.

“Oh your husband can’t attend because he works that weekend, but you said he stopped working weekends (why would I say that???). Oh your daughter still works at that place, you said she quit (why would I say that???). Endless examples

It’s ongoing. She does it to my brother (her husband) and her kids too. She does it to my dad and it makes him question his memory (he is elderly but his memory is intact).

The only thing she accomplishes is that we all, including my nephews-her kids, distance ourselves from her and avoid her at all costs when we can. Well maybe that was her goal

There might be all kind of reasons why people do this. But good for you not putting up with it. God idea deleting her texts without reading. She clearly just can’t stop! She can’t address her personal issues with alcohol or whatever other drama she has in her household and she takes it out on you. In this trying time people ought to support each other or leave each other alone if can’t offer support. Who wants drama NOW?

I am glad you had great talk with your son. Excellent. Hope this so called friend leaves you alone. The last thing people need now is someone tearing us down. And honestly if she doesn’t stop maybe you need to threaten her with legal actions. This is harassment. Maybe threats of legal actions will stop her from texting you.








What you described with your sister-in-law is exactly the same behavior. The person in my life says she isn't drinking but as she has been outed as a liar...why should I believe her? She has been doing that thing of saying stuff that isn't true for about a year. That your SIL does it too I find intriguing. It's so weird. It's like these people are trying to act like they are in-the-loop when they aren't.

The person in my life accused me of distancing and I guess its true. I always distance from the drama around addiction when people are not in recovery. I am sick at heart that this person's husband is drinking. I have known him a very long time...since we were teenagers. His father was a raging alcoholic. So it is very sad to see it played out again. My friend doesn't attend Alanon for herself or arrange an intervention for him. They both have large extended families. Why don't these people arrange an intervention?


There weren't any more poisonous texts this morning, thank goodness. But I feel a bit spooked. If there were texts I was going to leave a phone message and tell her I would be calling the police department of her town (which is my home town although I no longer live there) and have them do a wellness check on her.


I still feel very spooked. This person could spread a lot of gossip about me in my home town. She could do a lot of damage. Perhaps that's why I have placated her in the past. But then that is being controlled by her...and I am done with that.

This person sent me a laundry list of things she has done as a friend to me. Again, that's weird. Friends don't keep a tally of what they do for one another.

I am afraid I recognize a lot of narcissistic traits here.


I know there must be a silver lining in her devaluation and discard and I can turn this into a POSITIVE experience. I have started to work on recreating my career after being out of the labor force for awhile. It is going to be hard but I think Post Covid 19 there may be a greater need for my particular skills...and I have the advanced education to back it up.

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Default Apr 10, 2020 at 12:52 PM
  #34
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In her texts she's going back five and ten years...saying all I have done is made bad decisions...etc. I am feeling myself developing a full blown case of PTSD. She is taking every thing in my life and trashing it.
This is a narcissistic rage rant. The way she is blasting you one text after another, filling up your space like that, that's a narcissistic rage rant. It's a form of verbal abuse. If you were to look at what she is doing in all those texts, she is PROJECTING her own issues onto you. Often this includes self righteousness when in reality, the person raging has plenty of issues and failures themselves. Sometimes, what you really learn is that another person basically just used you as an emotional patsy.

I caution about using the label narcissist though, that seems to be everyone's go to these days. Her behavior was narcissistic but she may be borderline personality disorder as they are prone to rages and delusional distorted thinking too. You may be looking at a relationship where the husband is an alcoholic narcissist and the wife is borderline and that's something you don't want to get involved with as you described where you are being trianglated. And that's a speculation on my part because I don't know these individuals personally, but am just going by what you shared.

Hmm, she has been married 40 years, that means an older generation probably in the late 60's maybe? I think about the messages of that generation where women chose to be a "stay at home mom" and live by a one income family life. Women ran the home, did the cooking, cleaning, were there for the children and they did the shopping for the food and clothing, some even managed the money and paid the bills. The career was all about "being a mother and managing the home and all that entailed". That has most certainly changed dramatically with women being encouraged to have their own careers and the cost of living went up so much that things got so both parents had to work. A lot of women got involved with schools so they could earn money and still be home for the children so many became teachers. And other women actually created their own businesses where they could earn money and still be their for their children when they got home from school too. That's what I did myself, my priority was my child and making sure I was "there" for her. I really loved being a mother. Actually, one of my favorite movies is "Baby Boom". I think part of that was remembering learning how to have a business, feel good about it and also being able to enjoy being a parent too.

I think about how people use all these labels now, how if someone is a challenge right away that person is a narcissist. I never really thought about people the way they do now. I never remember myself even thinking about using the label narcissist. I have been doing a great deal of reading and listening and as I am learning I can now think back on individuals I experienced in my life who exhibited all the red flags describing different personality disorders, but also how people are different due to adhd, dyslexia, aspergers etc., too.

Hmm, a friend for fifty years, and then having that individual hurt you in a way you never expected. I can relate to that but for me it was my older sister. I think we can put another person in a place in our mind and not realize how many things we did not notice about that person that really comes at us in the worse imaginable way ever. Yes, it can be so gut wrenching and traumatic it can cause a person to experience ptsd. Yet, it's important to keep in mind that if you are a nice and caring person, often you don't really see it for what it really is. I sat across from my therapist so many times uttering "I can't think that dark, my wheelhouse doesn't work that way AT ALL". And that's precisely what a toxic person looks for. They listen to what you share VERY DIFFERENTLY. They need to control you, to have some kind of superiority over you, and when you somehow fail to meet up to THEIR needs, they punish you with all your imperfections to weaken you. Then they proceed to project ALL THEIR FAULTS AND ISSUES ON YOU TOO.

The things my older sister has chosen to do are things I would NEVER have chosen to do myself EVER! And that was EXACTLY what she was counting on so she could steal thousands of dollars from her own parents, even choose to neglect her own father's teeth that were so bad, because SHE wanted the money that was there FOR HERSELF. I have literally lived that movie "gaslight" and I am still trying to wrap my brain around it all. I kept making excuses for her, must be this, must be that because she can't be that EVIL. The truth has been extremely painful. So much so that I don't want to wake up anymore or I just drive to a nearby church and sit and cry.

However, this has nothing to do with you deserving respect and compassion or to even be valued. It's more about how the other person simply doesn't have that in them to do so. They learn how to fake it and they learn how to spot certain people they can "use", but they don't have it in them to care like you do, and often when you find that out is when they choose to do what you are experiencing, beat you up with all the things they collected to do just that with. I made it a point to get an accounting, and thats when I got to see just how bad things really were and the accounting she presented blamed me for everything SHE did herself. Toxic people have absolutely no interest in accounting for anything. They are much too self righteous for that.
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Default Apr 10, 2020 at 01:46 PM
  #35
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The person in my life accused me of distancing and I guess its true. I always distance from the drama around addiction when people are not in recovery. I am sick at heart that this person's husband is drinking. I have known him a very long time...since we were teenagers. His father was a raging alcoholic. So it is very sad to see it played out again. My friend doesn't attend Alanon for herself or arrange an intervention for him. They both have large extended families. Why don't these people arrange an intervention?
It's not a bad thing when you choose to disance when it comes to dealing with alcoholism. People who have that disease can be VERY toxic. Some alcoholics are "mean" drunks and can say awful things, mean things. If they have a personality disorder, it can get VERY toxic. I had a friend that was an alcoholic, I tried SO HARD to help her get sober too. You only do so much, if a person doesn't want to stop you can't make them stop. I think this friend also had Histonic PD, she needed to be the center of attention constantly. I just could NOT get through to her, she died of the disease.

I am ok when someone is making it a point to stay sober and learn to function without the alcohol. But I can't deal with it when someone is drinking. I don't want to go through what I already went through with that again. My husband has helped so many in their effort to stay sober over the years. Actually with what's going on I hear him running meetings or sitting in on meetings via video chats. Last night he mentioned there were 48 people interacting. All supporting each other, nice to see taking place.

Recently someone said some cold mean things to me about my effort to support sobriety and forgiving. Sometimes that comes from someone who has a problem too. I thought about that last night when listening to people supporting others who embrace sobriety. I have things I have dealt with in this particular challenge that were very challenging, and when someone throws that at me, I am DONE, want nothing more to do with that person.

It's really ok to have boundaries when it comes to being exposed to that challenge. I wish there was a better way to intervene. But you can't make it happen unless the person is willing to do something about it.
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Default Apr 10, 2020 at 01:51 PM
  #36
I think about how people use all these labels now, how if someone is a challenge right away that person is a narcissist

I think that is because we live in a very narcissistic culture. It is a breeding ground for narcissism...the whole posting selfies culture, people promoting themselves and their lives on all the media outlets, the celebrity culture etc.


I'm not using the term lightly. I think she is a covert narcissist. On the outside she appears very caring and altruistic. She is a fixer...and gets kind of intrusive and crosses boundaries. Maybe there are borderline traits but I think what this person hides is a very superior attitude.

This person worked part-time but did not go to college and create a career. I have struggled to establish a career but I have advanced education. So there might be envy...and that is mainly what she attacked...that I did not create a full-blown career although I have held responsible positions, freelance etc. She also attacked me for being alone. Well, duh, I am divorced and live alone. Had a few post divorce dating things that didn't hold my attention. So yeah, I am alone. She also attacked me because I got into a bad dating situation. Well, this is pretty common with women coming out of a long marriage. I hadn't dated for 25 years and there are a lot of creeps out there.



Narcissistic rage rant. You see, this seems to fit. The whole thing started because she is always making stuff up...like how she said I repeatedly told her I had to be out of my apartment. When I confronted her and said perhaps she had memory issues...that ignited the whole thing.

It was like she ripped off a mask and I had no idea who she was. Now perhaps she is very stressed by Covid 19...as we all are...and she was unable to maintain her usual facade.




So what I think is that although this was a long friendship it was not a deep friendship. For instance, I had a very small and intimate wedding and didn't invite her because I had another social group at the time.


It seems to me she always shows up more when I am going through hard times because then I am very vulnerable.

We are talking about a life-long relationship...so it is...difficult to analyze. I mean we went through childhood together...and were very close...then teen years and I actually introduced her to her husband! I was dating the younger brother and arranged for her to meet the older brother and they ended up getting married before they were 20.


Then as adults with marriages, households, children, extended family...we had a lot in common. But after that not so much.

All I can say is in later years it always seemed to popped up in my life when I was vulnerable. Which kind of fits the narcissistic pattern. And yes...I was always a softer personality than her...not so materialistic or competitive.

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Default Apr 10, 2020 at 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Open Eyes View Post
It's not a bad thing when you choose to disance when it comes to dealing with alcoholism. People who have that disease can be VERY toxic. Some alcoholics are "mean" drunks and can say awful things, mean things. If they have a personality disorder, it can get VERY toxic. I had a friend that was an alcoholic, I tried SO HARD to help her get sober too. You only do so much, if a person doesn't want to stop you can't make them stop. I think this friend also had Histonic PD, she needed to be the center of attention constantly. I just could NOT get through to her, she died of the disease.

I am ok when someone is making it a point to stay sober and learn to function without the alcohol. But I can't deal with it when someone is drinking. I don't want to go through what I already went through with that again. My husband has helped so many in their effort to stay sober over the years. Actually with what's going on I hear him running meetings or sitting in on meetings via video chats. Last night he mentioned there were 48 people interacting. All supporting each other, nice to see taking place.





It is also hard to deal with someone who is an enabler. I have never seen this person's husband drunk. I guess you would say he was a highly functional alcoholic during his career years but maybe things have spiraled out of control as he went into semi-retirement.

So my friend won't get divorced for financial reasons and she is locked in. However, truthfully, I don't think she wants divorce...they are very enmeshed. I think she would benefit from Alanon...but she probably doesn't want to "go public" with her problems.

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Default Apr 10, 2020 at 02:09 PM
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I think about how people use all these labels now, how if someone is a challenge right away that person is a narcissist

I think that is because we live in a very narcissistic culture. It is a breeding ground for narcissism...the whole posting selfies culture, people promoting themselves and their lives on all the media outlets, the celebrity culture etc.
Well, I had a therapist that talked about how narcissistic our overall society has become, he retired and I have had a discussion with the therapist I have now and he mentioned how it was actually there in my generation as well as my parent's generation. He told me to watch a series called "Mad Men" if I could find it. He said it shows my parent's generation when they were in their thirties and what it was like. So I found that series and watched the first episode. My therpist warned me it may be triggering as it does bring you back to how things were, he noticed that when he observed his parents watch it. Then he explained how there were a lot of narcissists in that generation, in fact it was more acceptable. I noticed that when I watched it. There were definitely a lot of womanizers in that generation. Idk if you can find that series you may want to check it out and see what I mean. I only watched the first episode, for some reason I just did not want to watch more, but that may have been due to how my parents both just recently passed away and it was a bit much for me to watch.

I think it's always been there, but with all our technology, it's a lot more in the face now.
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Default Apr 10, 2020 at 02:16 PM
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So my friend won't get divorced for financial reasons and she is locked in. However, truthfully, I don't think she wants divorce...they are very enmeshed. I think she would benefit from Alanon...but she probably doesn't want to "go public" with her problems.
Well, she is probably extremely afraid of the shame she may be faced with. I remember when I talked about the problem and we set out to address it, I was shunned and shamed badly. There definitely was a stigma in my generation, I am in my 60's. The shunning and shaming I dealt with traumatized me, and I think that's a big part of why when someone hits me with that in a cruel way, thats it for me, don't want any part of someone like that.

What you are talking about is an enabler that doesn't want to face reality. That dynamic is a bit different.
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Default Apr 10, 2020 at 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Open Eyes View Post
Well, I had a therapist that talked about how narcissistic our overall society has become, he retired and I have had a discussion with the therapist I have now and he mentioned how it was actually there in my generation as well as my parent's generation. He told me to watch a series called "Mad Men" if I could find it. He said it shows my parent's generation when they were in their thirties and what it was like. So I found that series and watched the first episode. My therpist warned me it may be triggering as it does bring you back to how things were, he noticed that when he observed his parents watch it. Then he explained how there were a lot of narcissists in that generation, in fact it was more acceptable. I noticed that when I watched it. There were definitely a lot of womanizers in that generation. Idk if you can find that series you may want to check it out and see what I mean. I only watched the first episode, for some reason I just did not want to watch more, but that may have been due to how my parents both just recently passed away and it was a bit much for me to watch.

I think it's always been there, but with all our technology, it's a lot more in the face now.






I know about that show but don't have to watch it because I lived it. My father owned an advertising agency. I grew up in that culture of 50's narcissism...it really extended into the 60's. My parents founded a country club, and gave big lavish parties. We lived in a big house, my father drove fancy cars. We six kids had privilege childhoods with all the lessons...music, art...and summer camp. There was a lot of drinking among the adults...cocktail parties...charity balls...a whirlwind of activity. But when the 60's came all us kids except the oldest started to rebel, and to embrace the counter-culture.

I went to an alternative college and found whole new worlds out there...like activism, women's liberation etc. My parents were very unhappy with me. My mother wouldn't take me on a trip to Italy to visit her relatives because she said I didn't dress properly. When she returned she said all my cousins in Italy dressed just like me...you know, over-alls, work boots, long hair.

So yeah, my father was a narcissist, and my mother a covert narcissist. I know the pattern. The thing about them was that they were extremely popular, charismatic, talented and intelligent. So as terrible as it sounds I had an amazing childhood filled with fun and activity. I didn't suffer as a child...not at all. My father provided us with a very comfortable life.

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