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Default Apr 24, 2020 at 01:17 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by divine1966 View Post
You can’t push anyone to cheat. People are either cheaters or they aren’t. Nothing you can do to push anyone.

Yes you stand up for yourself and speak up. If you’d goal is to build your self esteem up, that’s the first thing people with healthy self esteem do: speak up and stand up and don’t tolerate bad treatment.

Of course if whatever she does with these single men falls into a bothersome category. You aren’t telling us who they are and what she does with them. If they are fellow chess players in a chess club then I suggest you examine why you are upset. If they are people in “adult” chat rooms and conversations are sexual, then yes it’s inappropriate. So again it all depends on what you decided on nature of your marriage. Some people have open marriage or whatever other arrangement

You need to be on the same page
I want to do that. I want to stand up for myself. It's not easy. I just feel like everyone thinks it's a trust issue. I just don't like what I'm hearing. It's like if I put spinach in your food and you say, hey, I don't like spinach. Please don't cook with spinach. It reminds me of when I was a kid and my parents forced me to eat spinach until I threw up. Then I said, well, it's good for you! I'm not doing anything wrong. You think I'm trying to poison you? You don't trust me!!! If you don't eat my food, then you must not trust me.

Then you try and talk to people about it and they all say, what's your problem? Spinach is natural. The only people who don't like spinach are people who haven't dealt with their issues. Either get over it or you are going to push her away.

Why can't she just say, well, it seems silly to me, I'm a really good cook. I really like putting spinach in most everthing I cook, but if that's the only thing that has been bugging you all these years I will sacrifice that for you. My food might taste a little more bland but I love you more than that. Maybe I can find something new to cook with or just find a new interest all together.

Anyways, these guys are not in any type of work or special interest group. They are all one or two people removed from anyone important or less. Old girlfriend's brother, mom's friend's son, guy I met at the mall, etc. They seem to have nothing in common that they would be missing out on if they weren't engaging with eachother. The only thing I can see they share in common is an interest in her physical appearance. I'm done talking about them. It just makes me upset.

I have a problem. I know. I pray every day for relief. I was abused, abandoned, disrespected from childhood to adulthood. Now I am on this journey to recovery. It's hard to build self esteem when the first thing your mind tells you is, you are not good enough to get better. I just wish I could share that journey with my partner instead of trying to work around her.
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Default Apr 24, 2020 at 01:28 AM
  #22
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How about one of those Dialectical Behavioural Therapy workbooks? I mentioned this to someone else today. There's different topics to choose from.. Anxiety, Borderline Personality.. and others. A lady friend of mine made a mention of this which recommended to her by her trauma specialist. It's similar to Cognitive Behavioral Therapy but is more in-depth. I'm thinking of buying one, myself (Amazon).
I downloaded a positive trait worksheet! I will try and print it out and do it. Thanks! I want to grow!
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Default Apr 24, 2020 at 02:19 AM
  #23
Hi, I would like to point out that flirting can be harmless and it is possible she doesn’t mean anything by it. Some girls don’t get along with other girls and might be looking for attention where she might be insecure or possible lonely or bored. If your jealousy is not something that concerns her, I would be concerned. She likely will be happy to receive more attention from someone who she has chosen to be in a committed relationship with. Just my two cents... I think the best thing to do is talk to her and decide where you both want the relationship to go. Maybe rekindle early romances or take your relationship to new places. Be careful not to poke too much or spark unnecessary arguments. It is also possible that some people are pushed away by their own insecurities and sometimes people simply grow apart..
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Default Apr 24, 2020 at 07:05 AM
  #24
It could be of course just your trust issue if she doesn’t do anything inappropriate but just chit chats with people casually. I imagined something more deliberately malicious on her part. Is it flirting or just talking? I’d continue talking to your therapist about it.
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Default Apr 24, 2020 at 10:00 AM
  #25
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Hi, I would like to point out that flirting can be harmless and it is possible she doesn’t mean anything by it. Some girls don’t get along with other girls and might be looking for attention where she might be insecure or possible lonely or bored. If your jealousy is not something that concerns her, I would be concerned. She likely will be happy to receive more attention from someone who she has chosen to be in a committed relationship with. Just my two cents... I think the best thing to do is talk to her and decide where you both want the relationship to go. Maybe rekindle early romances or take your relationship to new places. Be careful not to poke too much or spark unnecessary arguments. It is also possible that some people are pushed away by their own insecurities and sometimes people simply grow apart..
I agree with everything you said. You are spot on. I try to keep the romance alive. She just left for work. I smiled and was cheerful, told her I loved her. Kissed her. Listened attentively to her stories as she was getting dressed. Told her she had beautiful eyes. Gave her a big hug right before she left. I know these are all things she needs because I listen to her. I make sure I am doing everything I can to make her feel secure in the relationship. Problem is, I don't get the same in return. I just want her to at least agree that her behavior hurts me and that she will work on it. But she denies, redirects, avoids, lashes out instead. I am tired of it. I don't want to be with her anymore. I want to get strong and move on!
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Default Apr 24, 2020 at 10:29 AM
  #26
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It could be of course just your trust issue if she doesn’t do anything inappropriate but just chit chats with people casually. I imagined something more deliberately malicious on her part. Is it flirting or just talking? I’d continue talking to your therapist about it.
What am I not trusting in her? That she won't keep doing the same thing over and over? That's the only thing I don't trust her on.

You imagined whatever would be offensive to you. Like I said before, everone has different thresholds of tolerance. It's flirting if I tell you please don't talk to specific people about specific topics, single men about your body, it hurts me. I used to be a drug addict. I think it's funny to still crack jokes about drugs. She's never taken a drug in her life and has expressed to me that it makes her uncomfortable. So I don't talk about drugs when I'm around her. I even stopped smoking cigars altogether, not just around her, because I want her to feel secure. I love smoking cigars, it's a relaxing hobby. So I found another relaxing hobby. No problem. If she is insecure about her body, talk about it with your girlfriends, co-workers, family friends. Talk about it with me. Or if it's so important to chit chat with unrelatable single men, if you would just die without them, talk about coronavirus or elections or football, not your butt or your thighs or your breasts or your even just your beautiful smile.

I am still working with my therapist. I am feeling very impatient right now. I appreciate all your help. You have been helping me alot and I'm sorry that I ranted on you. I hope you aren't offended. I don't know what else to do.
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Default Apr 24, 2020 at 12:20 PM
  #27
Ugh. My last 2 posts is really just the sound of me beating myself up. Sorry if I offended anyone. I criticize my relationship and then I feel worse. I really need some help!
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Default Apr 24, 2020 at 12:31 PM
  #28
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I agree with everything you said. You are spot on. I try to keep the romance alive. She just left for work. I smiled and was cheerful, told her I loved her. Kissed her. Listened attentively to her stories as she was getting dressed. Told her she had beautiful eyes. Gave her a big hug right before she left. I know these are all things she needs because I listen to her. I make sure I am doing everything I can to make her feel secure in the relationship. Problem is, I don't get the same in return. I just want her to at least agree that her behavior hurts me and that she will work on it. But she denies, redirects, avoids, lashes out instead. I am tired of it. I don't want to be with her anymore. I want to get strong and move on!
Whatever it may happen in the future, from your posts in this threads, you are doing the best thing for you that is, working with a therapist to empower yourself and overcome your own issues. Of course, the ideal would be that your wife understood how you feel and instead of denied or distract, contributed with a a solution, complicity at these moments is very needed. She has needs but you also have your needs. You should feel listened in your own relationship. Maybe, she is not now ready or didn’t progress with her issues as much as you.

As I mention before you are taking the leads for yourself and who knows, maybe, she’s gonna realise of who she has at home with her . :-)

Sending you many strength.

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Default Apr 24, 2020 at 01:04 PM
  #29
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What am I not trusting in her? That she won't keep doing the same thing over and over? That's the only thing I don't trust her on.

You imagined whatever would be offensive to you. Like I said before, everone has different thresholds of tolerance. It's flirting if I tell you please don't talk to specific people about specific topics, single men about your body, it hurts me. I used to be a drug addict. I think it's funny to still crack jokes about drugs. She's never taken a drug in her life and has expressed to me that it makes her uncomfortable. So I don't talk about drugs when I'm around her. I even stopped smoking cigars altogether, not just around her, because I want her to feel secure. I love smoking cigars, it's a relaxing hobby. So I found another relaxing hobby. No problem. If she is insecure about her body, talk about it with your girlfriends, co-workers, family friends. Talk about it with me. Or if it's so important to chit chat with unrelatable single men, if you would just die without them, talk about coronavirus or elections or football, not your butt or your thighs or your breasts or your even just your beautiful smile.

I am still working with my therapist. I am feeling very impatient right now. I appreciate all your help. You have been helping me alot and I'm sorry that I ranted on you. I hope you aren't offended. I don't know what else to do.
I am not offended. I just don’t 100% understand your situation. I can’t imagine talking about my butt to men so I am a little taken aback.

I don’t know. I am the wrong person to advice. I have low tolerance for stuff that doesn’t suit me. I don’t believe kids benefit from watching parents being unhappy in their marriage. Kids always know. Life is too short to have anything less than what you want. But it’s just me. My opinion is not very popular on this matter.
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Default Apr 25, 2020 at 07:58 AM
  #30
@guy1111, I am going to offer a different perspective on this. A marriage involves compromises and sometimes even sacrifices in order to keep the marriage stable, happy and fulfilling.

I've read each of your posts in this thread, and the bottom line is: her behavior is HURTING YOU and it's in fact, harmful to the health of your marriage because you say her talking to single men effects how you behave in the marriage, ie, by distancing yourself more.

If you've expressed your hurt to her and she continues to behave this way, in my opinion she is being very insensitive to your feelings.

We cannot control or dictate whom another speaks with and we cannot dictate their friendships, but certainly, if speaking with single men HURTS you, my question is, WHY is she still doing this??

If I express something to my husband about how similar behaviors around other women effect me, you know what he does? He stops the behavior, out of love and respect for me. That is love and that is compromise. And we've faced this issue in many different ways. The way he responds is by respecting my feelings and wishes..

You yourself have made certain adjustments in your life or behavior because of how it effects her. But she's not giving you the same flexibility and level of caring in return.

Sure, you may have some issues to work on personally based on your past that you're working through, but she is pushing your insecurity buttons by doing this - and she is not showing that she loves you or respects you by curbing the behavior that causes you such pain.

In a marriage when we know that we are hurting the other person, ideally we adjust that behavior so we no longer hurt the person we love. That is what a healthy relationship involves. It means caring enough about the other person's feelings to avoid hurting them.

I also think it's pretty inappropriate for her to carry on interpersonal relationships with single men when in a marriage. To me it sends up a red flag. Does she seek out and need male attention from men who may desire her because they're single?

And WHY is she talking to these men about her body parts??? Does she want their sexual attention? Because that's what that will accomplish -- talking about her body with them will only make them want her more and it crosses boundaries.

So the question is for me is: WHY is she doing this and WHAT is she getting out of it? And why single men only? That also sends an alarm or red flag for me. Couples? Married men and women? That's one thing. So WHY ALL SINGLE MEN??? She's getting something out of this, and my most educated guess is she wants their sexual attention and desire. She is feeding off of it.

That's my two cents. I hope this somewhat helps you, I'm sorry for your pain, and I hope this gets resolved. Hugs to you.

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Last edited by Have Hope; Apr 25, 2020 at 08:15 AM..
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Default Apr 25, 2020 at 10:00 AM
  #31
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@guy1111, I am going to offer a different perspective on this. A marriage involves compromises and sometimes even sacrifices in order to keep the marriage stable, happy and fulfilling.

I've read each of your posts in this thread, and the bottom line is: her behavior is HURTING YOU and it's in fact, harmful to the health of your marriage because you say her talking to single men effects how you behave in the marriage, ie, by distancing yourself more.

If you've expressed your hurt to her and she continues to behave this way, in my opinion she is being very insensitive to your feelings.

We cannot control or dictate whom another speaks with and we cannot dictate their friendships, but certainly, if speaking with single men HURTS you, my question is, WHY is she still doing this??

If I express something to my husband about how similar behaviors around other women effect me, you know what he does? He stops the behavior, out of love and respect for me. That is love and that is compromise. And we've faced this issue in many different ways. The way he responds is by respecting my feelings and wishes..

You yourself have made certain adjustments in your life or behavior because of how it effects her. But she's not giving you the same flexibility and level of caring in return.

Sure, you may have some issues to work on personally based on your past that you're working through, but she is pushing your insecurity buttons by doing this - and she is not showing that she loves you or respects you by curbing the behavior that causes you such pain.

In a marriage when we know that we are hurting the other person, ideally we adjust that behavior so we no longer hurt the person we love. That is what a healthy relationship involves. It means caring enough about the other person's feelings to avoid hurting them.

I also think it's pretty inappropriate for her to carry on interpersonal relationships with single men when in a marriage. To me it sends up a red flag. Does she seek out and need male attention from men who may desire her because they're single?

And WHY is she talking to these men about her body parts??? Does she want their sexual attention? Because that's what that will accomplish -- talking about her body with them will only make them want her more and it crosses boundaries.

So the question is for me is: WHY is she doing this and WHAT is she getting out of it? And why single men only? That also sends an alarm or red flag for me. Couples? Married men and women? That's one thing. So WHY ALL SINGLE MEN??? She's getting something out of this, and my most educated guess is she wants their sexual attention and desire. She is feeding off of it.

That's my two cents. I hope this somewhat helps you, I'm sorry for your pain, and I hope this gets resolved. Hugs to you.
I agree with you except I have to clarify. This will put me in a lesser light which is fine. I'm not trying to demonize her. But my main point remains true. She doesn't only talk to singe men this way. She is, like alot of women, very much into her body image. It is probably a source of self esteem for her, much like a man's job is for alot of men. I have made the distinction to her in order to try to help her out.

Our marriage counselor and my personal therapist and many other people have described a healthy tactic of having a codeword or signal when a partner is feeling uncomfortable about the conversation so the other partner can back out of or tone down the conversation. Then he or she can privately later on share their feelings. It sounds like your husband is the more outgoing partner and sometimes gets carried away in the moment. Very understandable.

My problem is that it's all denial. I've never once heard her say that she might have gotten carried away in a conversation. It's always that I am trying to control her. This is part of why I just let her decide everything now. She needs her freedom.
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Default Apr 25, 2020 at 10:05 AM
  #32
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I am not offended. I just don’t 100% understand your situation. I can’t imagine talking about my butt to men so I am a little taken aback.

I don’t know. I am the wrong person to advice. I have low tolerance for stuff that doesn’t suit me. I don’t believe kids benefit from watching parents being unhappy in their marriage. Kids always know. Life is too short to have anything less than what you want. But it’s just me. My opinion is not very popular on this matter.
Well, I get mixed responses when I describe details that help a person decide which one of us is the "bad guy". Plus, of course I always try to be fair but her perspective is always going to be different.

I don't want the kids to see us unhappy either, but is it better to put them through divorce? We aren't fighting i front of them. We do lots of fun stuff together.
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Default Apr 25, 2020 at 10:08 AM
  #33
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I agree with you except I have to clarify. This will put me in a lesser light which is fine. I'm not trying to demonize her. But my main point remains true. She doesn't only talk to singe men this way. She is, like alot of women, very much into her body image. It is probably a source of self esteem for her, much like a man's job is for alot of men. I have made the distinction to her in order to try to help her out.

Our marriage counselor and my personal therapist and many other people have described a healthy tactic of having a codeword or signal when a partner is feeling uncomfortable about the conversation so the other partner can back out of or tone down the conversation. Then he or she can privately later on share their feelings. It sounds like your husband is the more outgoing partner and sometimes gets carried away in the moment. Very understandable.

My problem is that it's all denial. I've never once heard her say that she might have gotten carried away in a conversation. It's always that I am trying to control her. This is part of why I just let her decide everything now. She needs her freedom.
I don't fully understand what you mean here... in terms you being viewed in a lesser light.

Yeah, denial would really bother me too. I hear you. Sounds to me like she's stonewalling you.

And to me, that's a weak excuse on her part: "you're trying to control me". She's deflecting the responsibility of her own behavior back onto you, making it YOUR issue, not hers.

I think it's very insensitive, that she's seeking attention from men, and that she's making it YOUR problem and not HER issue. That's how I view it.

I would be super annoyed if my husband did that to me, and if his attitude was like, you're controlling and you're untrusting, when he's the one seeking out sexual attention from multiple single women. It would cause a huge problem in our marriage. In fact, if my husband's ego needed that much attention and stroking from other women, I probably never would have married him.

I think what this points to in fact is a deep insecurity on your wife's part since she needs all this ego stroking and attention from other men. Why isn't she in therapy to deal with her own insecurities and need for so much attention? Or is she?

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Default Apr 25, 2020 at 11:33 AM
  #34
Hi guy111, thanks for sharing more about your wife’s behaviors so we can better understand the dynamics of her behavior pattern that keeps triggering you.

From what you have shared it sounds like your wife is actually very insecure about her looks and needs constant reassurance that she has value and is attractive. Perhaps she is uncomfortable with herself and getting attention from these different men helps her have a sense of value and gives her permission to feel a connection to her own physical presence

It sounds like your attention alone is not enough to fill that need in her. That can most definitely be triggering for a person that suffers from ptsd that experienced emotional neglect and abuse.

Yes your analogy about hating spinach and yet constantly being expected to eat it despite your feelings about it does reflect how your feelings and opinions were devalued and undermined and you were instead forced to eat it to satisfy your parents needs.

This dynamic can most definitely leave a person constantly wanting THEIR chance to have their emotional needs heard and respected. And the other challenge is feeling that if you do share what is bothering you what you share will only end up being dismissed and undermined and you will get answers of “just ignore it or it’s not that bad”. Even worse someone may say “oh that never bothers me and they hand you more about how they don’t see it as a big deal etc. when they are saying “it doesn’t bother me and I do this or that”. Again the response is about THEM and not YOU.

It sounds as though to keep the peace you end up giving in and you kiss your wife and tell her how beautiful she looks. That’s very much like eating the spinach anyway even when you don’t like it and would like your feelings be respected.

You end up in an emotional tug of war and the other person always seems to win. So you always have to be the good guy even when it hurts.

Does that sound right to you guy111 ?
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Default Apr 25, 2020 at 11:57 AM
  #35
Often what happens when a child is expected to eat the spinach anyway even if they don’t like it and it makes them sick is they are trained to end up with that kind of person in their lives. The person doesn’t even realize how they may even choose this partner because it is familiar. And often they are appreciated at first because they fit what the spinach person wants.

A person that wants all the control and to have THEIR needs be a priority always looks for that good guy type person that gives in and constantly pleases the other persons feelings and emotional needs.
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Default Apr 25, 2020 at 12:40 PM
  #36
Sometimes without realizing it a person can be taught to SERVE others. As long as you serve that other persons needs you are good and may even get a tip now and then. But god forbid you fail to serve that person the way they need. Not only will that person be angry but they do not tip and they also proceed to tell anyone how awful YOU were because you failed to serve them the way they expect. This kind of individual tends to treat you as though your self esteem depends on how well you serve them. After all they are superior. They only see you in what you do to serve them. That’s the only time you get praise.

What contributed to my explaining this with you is how you shared all the things you stopped doing FOR her. And as you explain more of is what you do FOR her. This is why I think your pattern has been that of serving her as I have described.

Does this describe what you are trying to explain that leaves you feeling you do so much and still feel that emotional neglect?

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Default Apr 25, 2020 at 12:45 PM
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The only thing I can see they share in common is an interest in her physical appearance. I'm done talking about them. It just makes me upset.
I'm in a very similar situation with my partner. I was accused of being insecure and jealous, as he laughed it off.

Here is a portion of an email I sent him the other day in which I think you'll appreciate:

Quote:
If we know or are told we've hurt someone, we make an effort to stop doing what’s hurting them. If the offending actions become habit, three things come to mind:

1) The person is completely aware of their actions but lack empathy to care enough, in order to get something they want (attention, admiration, validation, sympathies, superiority, etc)

2) The person is unaware, as they're too preoccupied in themselves to think about someone else, in order to get something they want (attention, admiration, validation, sympathies, superiority, etc)

3) The person is well aware and continues anyway, for the purpose of power, control, revenge, convenience, etc.

IMO, I see all three. Either you don't think about me at all -- you don't care about my feelings -- or you do it on purpose for said reasons.
I've read most of this thread and don't think it's all about you. Yes, you have your insecurities and trauma that has nothing to do with her. She, as well, is adding to these feelings. She's totally gnawing at your insecurities with her own disrespectful behaviours because in those moments, all she's thinking about is herself.

My partner acts like a single guy, even when we're on an outing as a family (we have 2 toddlers). He will check-out other women even if they're with their partners.. even if he has to get past 'me' to get to 'them' (I'm 5'4" and petite, gawd).. even if they're not at all interested in his attention.. even if he's using me to get their attention.. and ALL he needs is a quick glance in his direction to feel validated.. and then he'll make some form of physical contact with me or asks me if "I'm ok"..

Anyway, I fully get you. No, it's not your problem. She does need to address this piece.
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Default Apr 25, 2020 at 12:50 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by MsLady View Post
I'm in a very similar situation with my partner. I was accused of being insecure and jealous, as he laughed it off.

Here is a portion of an email I sent him the other day in which I think you'll appreciate:


I've read most of this thread and don't think it's all about you. Yes, you have your insecurities and trauma that has nothing to do with her. She, as well, is adding to these feelings. She's totally gnawing at your insecurities with her own disrespectful behaviours because in those moments, all she's thinking about is herself.

My partner acts like a single guy, even when we're on an outing as a family (we have 2 toddlers). He will check-out other women even if they're with their partners.. even if he has to get past 'me' to get to 'them' (I'm 5'4" and petite, gawd).. even if they're not at all interested in his attention.. even if he's using me to get their attention.. and ALL he needs is a quick glance in his direction to feel validated.. and then he'll make some form of physical contact with me or asks me if "I'm ok"..

Anyway, I fully get you. No, it's not your problem. She does need to address this piece.
I’m sorry that something similar is happening in your own relationship. And good for you for calling him out on it and for standing up for your rights to respect. I agree with the thoughts in your email that you sent - 100%. Now what he does with that information? If he continues to do as he pleases and if he continues to hurt you in this way, he has no respect and no concern for your feelings. That’s just plain mean and hurtful.

And the same thing goes for the OP. It’s hurtful behavior and in my opinion it should stop simply for that reason alone.

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Default Apr 25, 2020 at 12:59 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Have Hope View Post
I’m sorry that something similar is happening in your own relationship. And good for you for calling him out on it and for standing up for your rights to respect. I agree with the thoughts in your email that you sent - 100%. Now what he does with that information? If he continues to do as he pleases and if he continues to hurt you in this way, he has no respect and no concern for your feelings. That’s just plain mean and hurtful.
Thank you!

The email wasn't specific for the women issue, though. We had been talking about honesty in which he replied saying he "never intends to hurt me". How is that even slightly correct? We've had countless discussions about honesty, trust, respect, boundaries, loyalty, you name it.. it's been said. I was offended by his response. So I wrote it out like this. He thanked me for the email.. said it was very well written.. and he was going to address it with his counselor. It's a step.
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Default Apr 25, 2020 at 01:02 PM
  #40
Guy111 do you feel that you are being heard by different members better? That’s what is important here in your thread.
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