Abandonment Issue

I don't know. I am going over everyone's posts and I just feel deflated. I'm trying to stay positive. I am looking at attachment theory. I'm getting burned out on psychology. There's only so much you can do to be a better person when at the end of the day you are attached to someone who won't change. Don't mean to be a bummer. I appreciate all your input.

I think you're realizing and seeing the incompatibility between you. It's a hard crash landing, especially when you've been working so hard on altering your own reactions and when when you're working SO hard on self improvement.

When your partner is not doing the same, it's very deflating. And it seems that no matter what you say to her, she won't budge or give you even an inch.

I hate to sound all doomsday, and I wish I could be a lot more positive about your relationship, but you're struggling SO much, and she doesn't give you any real hope for change, for improvement, for validation or for a happier marriage.

You may need to start considering the possibility of leaving her. I know you have a mixed family with children involved, but at some stage you have to ask yourself: AM I HAPPY? AM I FULFILLED? AND IS THIS HEALTHY FOR ME?

Edited to add:

It was ONLY when I told my husband I am leaving him and divorcing him, that he decided to make some much needed behavioral changes -- which he did. And as you know, there is still more to come that needs improvement. I got to another breaking point and told him (a second time), that I will leave him. He has since made additional changes and improvements, but that doesn't mean I will stay with him --- I need to see permanent and lasting changes.

But perhaps this little tidbit can give you some amount of hope, and when push comes to shove, maybe you need to lay down the line? The thought of breaking up a family and a new marriage can be daunting, but like I insinuated above, is it worth all of this CONSTANT MISERY AND PAIN? I would think not. Something to think about.

Thank you. Ya, I feel you on dealing with your husband and having to take drastic measures. You sound like you have more energy than me. Maybe the kids are wearing me out. But I'm glad to see that your hard work has paid off some. That is smart to be patient and make sure the changes are lasting. We all slip up from time to time, but you can tell when there is a heartfelt change.

You asked before how couples therapy is going. I do see a change in her about her anger level, but it's only when it comes to her issues with me. It is a nice break to not have to deal with that, but that was never my main issue with her. Yelling doesn't bother me for very long. I can just tune it out. I guess I'm hoping she runs out of steam and the therapist starts to focus more on me.

It's literally been 3 times that I just brought up my problem of not being able to share my feelings and all three times it was met with hostility. The therapist thinks I'm just a typical guy who doesn't want to talk alot about feelings maybe? Maybe she thinks I'm making it up as an excuse to not have to talk? She asked me what it would take for me to be comfortable to open up, and I told her that I just want to be heard and not attacked. Then she ended the last session saying, maybe next week we can talk about good communication styles.

I'm really just getting bored of this. I already know how to communicate effectively with people who are civil. I don't think I am the problem. Maybe I'm being arrogant?

Thanks, Guy, on my own situation.

And in reply, maybe your therapist isn't a very good therapist if he/she cannot reflect back to you accurately what you experience with your wife. Sounds like the therapist misses the whole point of what you're going through. A session on good communication styles could be helpful though. Maybe a session on how to listen (i,e, your wife) and validate each other's feelings and viewpoints.

@Guy111, at the root of many of your challenges is a history of individuals that chose to invalidate your value.

You experienced a marriage where your wife cheated on you and did not value you or your feelings. You have trauma in your history when it comes to others who were selfish and self absorbed and that affected your personal sense of value.

It's totally understandable that your wife getting dressed up sexy and going out and hunting for attention from strangers would trigger you. It's understandable that how you value her and make it a point to maintain a safe and good home at times feels unappreciated bringing on these feelings of not being valued. That feeling of how you are "not enough" and that your wife at times acts entitled can be triggering old hurts too. That there is no true depth behind her charming ways may be a reality about her that may be too hard to accept in that you want her to value and care for you so you don't get hurt like you did before.

It's commendable that your concern about what you choose to do isn't easy in that you genuinely don't want your choice to affect the children in this home you made for them.

Communication must contain messages to a partner that respect and value. It has to be mutual otherwise someone suffers. A partner has to care enough to work towards improving their communication.

Wow, I really appreciate that! It feels giod hearing that. It's crazy to me. It seems so simple. What you said totally makes sense. I was never treated like I mattered. I was abused and neglected by my parents at an early age. Although later in life they attempted to make up for it. I was too damaged by then. Then jumping right in to a marriage with a soul sucking narcissist. I really am getting a lot out of my own therapy. I keep telling myself to put my foot down in couples therapy and I never really do until the last minute. I think it's self sabatoge. I have to knock that off. Thanks again for your insights!!!

Ya, that's what I'm afraid of. Im trying to be positive and patient. Thanks for your encouragement!

It does seem very simple, yet when it comes to a person's sense of their own value there are many emotions experienced when that is challenged by another person. And when one's sense of personal value is challenged when they are just a child, the best they can do is to try and tune it out because a child has no idea what to do with the emotions they experience when a parent or parents challenge their personal sense of value. This can also be experienced from their piers and teachers as well. And a child is much too young to understand what projection is as most of the hurts they experience are projections from unhealthy indivduals, and that can include their own parents.

It's probable that your wife has abandonment challenges as well and part of the reason she has this need to dress up and flirt is because she needs to feel she has value to make up for lack of sense of value that can go way back for her. The same is true when you forgot her order or dates and times, she gets triggered. People can get pretty defensive and stubborn about the things they choose to do that help them gain their sense of personal value and relevance.

Growing up I watched my mother put a lot of effort in getting dressed up to look nice. As a little girl I thought it was fun and I loved seeing her get all dressed up. Yet, when she came down the stairs and my father saw her all dressed up he never once smiled and told her how nice she looked. Instead he looked for a way to find something wrong, a little spot, a hanging thread, anything to deflate how wonderful she felt. It was a terrible thing for his little girls to witness. The reason he did that with her is that it made him feel threatened because when he was around 12 his mother ran away and abandoned her two children. Yet, when I was a child I did not know about that, it was not talked about. Truth is that most of the unhealthy things I witnessed take place between my parents was connected to how my father was abandoned by his mother. My father was very controlling of my mother. So he normalized behaviors that were actually unhealthy. Often this can lead to a daughter picking the wrong partner too due to things that are familiar, when these things instead should be considered red flags of a potentially unhealthy relationship.

It's unfortunate, but one of the things individuals do when they want control is they use methods to devalue the other individual. Yet, at the same time many individuals can grow up in environments where they are emotionally neglected and devalued in some way. And some of this is projection but as I mentioned, a child isn't capable of understanding what that means. This can contribute to that individual struggling with cognitive dissonance where they are haunted by good thoughts and bad thoughts that affect their personal sense of value that developed in them from their childhood. This tends to be accompanied by anxiety and even depression. And as I mentioned earlier, other emotions that bubble up that a child has no idea what to do with. And thus forms a habit of stuffing these emotions or even seeking self medicating like alcohol use to bring some form of relief.

I see you are trying to work on these challenges that bubble up and cause you so much distress. And I know you desire to find a way to explain to your wife what it means to you to struggle with these emotions and you desire her to empathize and comfort you and help you feel "safe" and "loved". Well, unfortunately a lot of people lack the depth to do that, and many do have their own challenges with self worth. That's really the common problem when it comes to relationship challenges. A good therapist takes time learning about the things that contribute to personal challenges in each patient, then the goal is to help a couple work on interacting with each other where each one feels valued and respected and improves on their behaviors and communication with each other.

With your exwife, that would not work, she was only interested in her own needs and doesn't have the capacity to care about how others feel. That was never anything you could change about her either. Yet, as with your parents, she left you with some deep wounds, emotional wounds that can come up when your wife now behaves in certain ways. If only she could understand that and change her behaviors that trigger these challenges you experience. If only she knew how hard it is for you to TRY and not feel all these feelings. And then there is that question of "does she value me enough to have interest in reducing that challenge her behaviors create". Yet, if she does this to gain a sense of her own value, that can be very hard to get her to stop doing too.

What I am concerned about with you is that since you have been so devalued in your childhood and in life with partners, that you are used to and conditioned to receiving disrespect and disregard, which leads to accepting what are normally viewed as unacceptable behaviors from a partner. Your wife continues to disregard and devalue you, and you seem to accept this treatment, despite not liking it. That's the conditioning at play.

You had stated in a previous post that you didn't really mind her yelling at YOU (and you said that has stopped now). But yelling at your spouse should not be acceptable in any way shape or form, in my opinion. Yelling is not a part of a loving, healthy and respectful marriage. If she is still yelling, ranting and raving about other things on a frequent basis and is not directing it at you, do you feel that that is healthy? It really isn't.

You are also not given a voice or opinion in your marriage. Perhaps in your couples therapy, you could voice your feelings more and tell the therapist that your wife's continued dismissal of you is unacceptable treatment. Either she loves you and treats you with the respect and equality you deserve by respecting your feelings and opinions and by taking them into consideration, or this marriage isn't going to work.

Just my two cents.

Wow! You really summed my life up to a T. You have a great way of explaining things. I don't want to give up. It's so hard, and I thought about starting over or just being on my own. Those are options, if she just can't get it and she pulls me down too far. Thanks, you left an image in my mind that helps me see things more clearly!

Ya, my biggest enemy is my own mind. She still yells and rants. It's lessened while we are in therapy, probably because she knows she will have to be somewhat accountable. I definitely let her mean words get to me sometimes. The other day, I forgot to tell her about plans my ex has for the kids and she read my phone and then asked if I was ever going to tell her about what my ex said. In the moment, I let her unkind words sink in and I panicked and lied and told her I didn't see the message. I thought about it later. I don't have to tell her ANYTHING if I choose not to! If she is so concerned, she could have asked. She is also welcome to look at my phone anytime. I have nothing to hide. So why should I feel bad that I forgot? Why should I lie to try and avoid conflict? I told her about 5 minutes later that I lied and said sorry because I hate that feeling, especially over something so petty. Of course she gets mad about it and tells me to go lie to someone else. One more example of how I can own my issues and apologize, yet she can't admit she flew off the handle about it. I'm definitely bringing that one up in therapy. B.S!

Perhaps you lied because you knew she would rant and rave again and you didn't want to face that? Or anything else that may be belittling and dismissive of you?

WHY is she looking in your phone, btw? Did she do that without you knowing and without asking?

Yes, I would definitely bring this up in therapy.

Your wife does not sound like a pleasant or even a nice person to be around. I really am wondering what it is that is positive that you get out of this relationship? I asked you this before and you never answered, which makes me think there's nothing positive you're receiving.

Well, you have a history of battle scars and part of why you avoid conflict is due to learning that if another person is incapable of valuing others, they tend to punch harder and hurt more and devalue you even more. Truth is we FEEL that, and because we were too young to know how to respond we genuinely feel helpless whenever certain confrontations happen. When we are young and genuinely don't have skills to engage, most learn to avoid and distance or take "flight".

I know you are working on your past traumas, trying to do the EMDR to process them. Yet, it's also important to identify the root, and most of the time that root tends to be different messages and behaviors that devalued you. When we are young we simply do not know that many of the behaviors we experience do not actually mean we have no value, but instead reflect the parent's or other individuals incompetence and lack of knowledge that they are projecting onto others.

It sounds like you get distracted by your own challenges and healing that you are zoning out certain things that make her feel that you are not paying attention to things she wants you to pay attention to. This may be triggering something from her past too where her needs went unheard and her presence was not acknowledged. Maybe her father did not acknowledge her, maybe he was abscent even. Has she shared her history with you?

Yes, I think you are right. I'm not sure why I'm slipping, other than being so tired from all the changes in my life right now.

Yes, she looked in my phone without asking. I have nothing to hide. I always feel bad after I look in her phone. I'm guessing she felt the same. Someone on these forums called it "pain shopping". You look until you find something you don't like. Yuck. Or on facebook, etc. I try not to do it.

I think I answered your question in another thread. But, she is really good with the kids. The sex is good. She is a genuinely nice person. She can hold an intelligent conversation. I know it must sound doom and gloom, but I only go on this forum for help with my issues. I know the yelling is bad, but I'm sure she feels the tension from me being closed off. I'm sure it agitates her. Not trying to excuse her behavior, but I think if she at least acknowledged my main issue and let me breathe a little, alot her anger would calm down. Unfortunately it just seems to agitate her all the more.

Thank you! Hopefully I get to those roots in therapy.

I do believe I am zoning out some stuff. It's exhausting. I feel like I'm carrying all the weight. Yes, we definitely go back and forth triggering eachother. Like someone said before, maybe you? A good therapist will see both sides and what triggers us and then help to mediate until we find a balance so we both get what we need. Apparently a good therapist is hard to find. Or I am just being impatient. We've only had 4 sessions.

Four sessions isn't very many guy. It is very probable that you are triggering each other and a good therapist will look into the behavior patterns that can stem from one's history. But that can take time and the idea is to help a couple understand each other better so they interact with their partner in ways that respect some of these challenges. Many members here do understand why her flirting triggers you, and it sounds like your wife doesn't get it. Yet, you also have done things that trigger her as well. And the whole point of this therapy is to find ways to change that problem you experience with each other.

Honestly, I met a woman that has a relationship therapist that her and her husband have met with for years, not so much to fix problems but to keep them on track with understanding each other's needs so their relationship stays healthy.

Hmm. Good with the kids, good sex, can carry an intelligent conversation and is generally nice. But she’s not very nice to you is she? Those reasons don’t hold a lot of weight - not for me at least. I know you’re trying to hold onto hope and be positive, and I understand that. She just sounds impossible and just like a narcissist. Narcissists are impossible to work with.

Ok, that gives me some hope! We had a minor breakthrough in therapy last night! The therapist explained how me always trying to be super understanding of her issues is kind of being co-dependant. Like I should be letter her fall down now and then or actually get upset with her for ranting all the time. And then I was able to get her to say sorry for making me feel like I can't express myself. I guess I will have to be more patient with this process.

You are right. I shouldn't let her get away with that crap. We did have a minor breakthrough as mentioned above. Thank you for all your support and understanding! You and everyone here have made my life bearable! Sadly I've been able to lean on you more than my wife for a long time. I hope your marriage gets better as well!!

Thank you, Guy.

I agree with you that you shouldn't let her get away with crap.

I am glad you have an outlet and support here! And I am glad that you're finding it to be useful.

Hang in there!