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Default Mar 07, 2017 at 02:37 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by unaluna View Post
So if you could get him to say yes to you, what would that MEAN? Follow the fantasy and you can find the issue(s). Thats how i do.

That or drop him and work with t2. T1 and you are not a good therapeutic match. We need someone who can get close but keep their distance. T1 has that backwards somehow. My prev t was like that. Personal closeness, professional distance - bad. Professional closeness, personal distance - good; you feel you can trust them and yourself. Your inner child needs to feel safe, no matter what is happening to the outer woman!

Eta - my prev t was like, if youre not smart enough to make me stop hurting you, then i will keep hurting you and taking your money, why not? I think your t1 is doing this.
What it would mean if he finally said yes would be that I am truly desirable and attractive--so much so that he wouldn't care about the rules. I want to feel THAT desirable and attractive that he just can't help himself.

But clearly he CAN help himself because he won't have a physical relationship with me. He's bad at therapy with me. It's just the way that he LOOKS at me and tells me that I fill him with desire and that he'd absolutely have wild passionate sex with me if it weren't against the rules that keeps me going back. I want to hear it over and over and over again. It makes me feel desirable and I have always felt undesirable. Even though my husband loves me and tells me I'm beautiful and sexy, I have an intense need to hear it from THIS MAN. THAT'S what I'm handing over all of my money and sanity for.
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Default Mar 07, 2017 at 10:56 PM
  #42
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What it would mean if he finally said yes would be that I am truly desirable and attractive--so much so that he wouldn't care about the rules. I want to feel THAT desirable and attractive that he just can't help himself.

But clearly he CAN help himself because he won't have a physical relationship with me. He's bad at therapy with me. It's just the way that he LOOKS at me and tells me that I fill him with desire and that he'd absolutely have wild passionate sex with me if it weren't against the rules that keeps me going back. I want to hear it over and over and over again. It makes me feel desirable and I have always felt undesirable. Even though my husband loves me and tells me I'm beautiful and sexy, I have an intense need to hear it from THIS MAN. THAT'S what I'm handing over all of my money and sanity for.
Would it help at all to think he's protecting you by not having a physical relationship with you? I mean, he's already not acting ethically right now, in what he has said to you. And that's negatively affecting you.

For him to actually have physical relations with you would really cross a line. And it sounds like it's pretty much always damaging to clients, no matter how much the client think they would want it.

Spend some more time talking with T2 and do your best to avoid seeing T1. That's the best thing you can do for yourself. Because you just sound tortured right now...
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Default Mar 07, 2017 at 11:25 PM
  #43
Ramona, you have a need to hit bottom. Nobody is going to stop you from going there. If i remember correctly, you are replaying your relationship with your father. You really want your father to see you as good, as special. Thats why t1 is so compelling. As skies said earlier, its not about sex per se. Its that WANTING to change their mind, to change how the story comes out, to change the ending, to make it come out right - thats what keeps us stuck. Usually we get stuck having bad relationships, getting involved with the same type of guy over and over. But getting stuck with a t shortens and quickens the loop, more money faster.
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Default Mar 07, 2017 at 11:54 PM
  #44
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Ramona, you have a need to hit bottom. Nobody is going to stop you from going there. If i remember correctly, you are replaying your relationship with your father. You really want your father to see you as good, as special. Thats why t1 is so compelling. As skies said earlier, its not about sex per se. Its that WANTING to change their mind, to change how the story comes out, to change the ending, to make it come out right - thats what keeps us stuck. Usually we get stuck having bad relationships, getting involved with the same type of guy over and over. But getting stuck with a t shortens and quickens the loop, more money faster.
This is all correct. I've been wondering what bottom looks like for a very long time now. I'm just like "how much lower can I go?" I was browsing gun websites online a few weeks ago and looking up state waiting period laws because I thought blowing my brains out would be preferable to how much it was hurting. I feel like that should have been bottom, right? I started talking to T2 about it at that point and I told three friends and I've felt different since then but also intermittently suicidal. I'm pretty freaking out to learn what bottom actually looks like.
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Default Mar 08, 2017 at 12:14 AM
  #45
Hitting bottom can be a good thing. I was in my mothers attic and was like, if i ever get out of here, let me remember THIS.
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Default Mar 08, 2017 at 08:43 AM
  #46
Seeing him Friday.
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Default Mar 08, 2017 at 09:04 AM
  #47
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But clearly he CAN help himself because he won't have a physical relationship with me. He's bad at therapy with me. It's just the way that he LOOKS at me and tells me that I fill him with desire and that he'd absolutely have wild passionate sex with me if it weren't against the rules that keeps me going back. I want to hear it over and over and over again. It makes me feel desirable and I have always felt undesirable. Even though my husband loves me and tells me I'm beautiful and sexy, I have an intense need to hear it from THIS MAN. THAT'S what I'm handing over all of my money and sanity for.
Did you tell him these^ exact things?

Does he actually still reinforce it verbally?

I'm not actually sure there is necessarily a "bottom" with this. You can keep seeing him for many more years this way, spending all the money, time and mental energy. I don't know... but after a while I imagine it might not have the same effect on you except more frustration with the limitations and feeling trapped.
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Default Mar 08, 2017 at 10:07 AM
  #48
Ramona, you don't want to hit bottom. You might not get back up. I see you wanting to test your therapists limits as well as your own. I sincerely wish you could break away from this man. He is causing you pain and torment. Think about how much worse that would be if sex actually occurred.

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Default Mar 08, 2017 at 01:45 PM
  #49
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Ramona, you don't want to hit bottom. You might not get back up. I see you wanting to test your therapists limits as well as your own. I sincerely wish you could break away from this man. He is causing you pain and torment. Think about how much worse that would be if sex actually occurred.
There is ZERO danger of sex occurring. He won't have me.

Now I'm going for two reasons: 1. The way he looks at me when I talk about my sexual fantasies with him, and 2. To express my anger at him for ****ing up my head so badly.

Seeing T2 tonight.
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Default Mar 08, 2017 at 01:48 PM
  #50
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There is ZERO danger of sex occurring. He won't have me.
Well, regardless, I meant that I wish you could realize that having sex with him will not make anything better. It's not going to be a magic.cure. whether or not he wants you, I think it's important to explore this within yourself or maybe even with your other, ethical therapist...because this type of pattern is one that will likely emerge in your life repeatedly

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Default Mar 08, 2017 at 01:51 PM
  #51
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Well, regardless, I meant that I wish you could realize that having sex with him will not make anything better. It's not going to be a magic.cure. whether or not he wants you, I think it's important to explore this within yourself or maybe even with your other, ethical therapist...because this type of pattern is one that will likely emerge in your life repeatedly
It definitely HAS occurred repeatedly. I do a terrible job protecting myself from people who don't give a flying **** about me. I trust untrustworthy people over and over and over again. It's from my mom. She taught me to "be nice" over everything else--that there's nothing more important than being a nice person. She taught me "let everyone else go first. No one likes a pushy person." She taught me that standing up for myself was selfish and to just let people do whatever they wanted and don't fight back.

Now I'm afraid I shouldn't even trust T2 because wtf am I doing trusting another therapist again? I clearly have no good sense of when I'm in danger or how to protect myself. I've told T2 I need to talk about this tonight and that I'm now freaked out by him as well.
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Default Mar 08, 2017 at 11:50 PM
  #52
Saw T2 tonight. He knows T1 professionally and says he honestly has no idea what the ****ing guy is doing but he doesn't like it. He said "no way are you going to that appointment on Friday. You're not going."

I know it may sound infantalizing, but I think part of me is stuck in such a childlike state that it was an enormous relief for someone to tell me what to do. I told him "but...I could go and express my anger towards him and work through that." He said "Not on Friday. Not this Friday." I told him I had already made the appointment and it's too late to cancel because I still have to pay, and then offered to knock the missed appointment fee off of his own fee just to not see me go because he said it would be unkind of him to let me go see this person who's torturing me. He said "Friday is a no."

I really needed someone to speak to the child in me. I am currently too disorganized and off balance to help her. I needed someone else who I respect to tell me "No."

He says T1 is just a fantasy of someone in my life I never got to meet, which is very sad.

But no on Friday.

I think I'm not even going to let T1 know. I think I'm going to just not show up and put a check for the missed appointment fee in the mail.
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Red face Mar 09, 2017 at 02:51 AM
  #53
Thank goodness someone heard you. I am so relieved, u managed to keep this T for now. He at least seems to know how out of hand things are.
I like he offered to knock the cancellation fee off his own fee. It shows genuine concern for your well being.
I also think it makes utter sense that you need someone to say no. You want someone to make you feel worthwhile, this T is saying, you are important, your worth protecting.
I am just so very glad you are able to talk to at least one person with your interests at heart.
Take care Ro, please follow this T's advice. Stay home on Friday.

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Default Mar 09, 2017 at 08:30 AM
  #54
Waking up this morning I can already feel my child self fighting because she wants to go tomorrow. I am not going to go but it will definitely be a battle. I'm trying to comfort myself by imagining how surprised T1 will be when I don't show up. I have never ever missed a single appointment in 3.5 years. It may be immature but honestly I hope the thought crosses his mind that I may have actually gone ahead and blown my brains out over this nightmare as I've told him I've been considering many times.

I'm just literally thinking--I KNOW I could get a crumb of affection from him tomorrow--I just know it. I could get my crumb! It's been 9 days since I've seen him. I want a crumb BAD.

Last edited by ramonajones; Mar 09, 2017 at 09:06 AM..
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Default Mar 09, 2017 at 10:09 AM
  #55
You can do it, Ramona! You are strong!
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Default Mar 09, 2017 at 03:37 PM
  #56
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Waking up this morning I can already feel my child self fighting because she wants to go tomorrow. I am not going to go but it will definitely be a battle. I'm trying to comfort myself by imagining how surprised T1 will be when I don't show up. I have never ever missed a single appointment in 3.5 years. It may be immature but honestly I hope the thought crosses his mind that I may have actually gone ahead and blown my brains out over this nightmare as I've told him I've been considering many times.

I'm just literally thinking--I KNOW I could get a crumb of affection from him tomorrow--I just know it. I could get my crumb! It's been 9 days since I've seen him. I want a crumb BAD.
I'm thinking of you, Ramona. It's taken me a long time to learn to make good decisions for myself. My Pdoc that went to federal prison....I wanted (want) to write him in prison. He's charismatic, entertaining, and weirdly I feel sorry for him. But I know it's not a good decision for either of us. So i won't.

Please make a good decision for yourself today, Ramona.

Last edited by precaryous; Mar 09, 2017 at 06:17 PM..
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Default Mar 09, 2017 at 06:01 PM
  #57
I agree, stay strong and don't go. When do you see T2 again? And does he allow out of session contact? Just thinking if you're having second thoughts tomorrow, you could contact T2, and he could help convince you to stay away. Hugs...
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Default Mar 09, 2017 at 10:29 PM
  #58
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I agree, stay strong and don't go. When do you see T2 again? And does he allow out of session contact? Just thinking if you're having second thoughts tomorrow, you could contact T2, and he could help convince you to stay away. Hugs...
T2 says I can email him or call whenever I need to. I prefer email so sometimes I email him a couple times a day. He even said if I didn't know what to do during my session with T1 tomorrow I could go to his (T2's) office suite and hang out in one of the meditation rooms with my baby. He said his trauma patients do that sometimes when they have an anniversary of something tough that's happened to them or just need a space where they feel safe.

Luckily(?) my babysitter is sick and can't come tomorrow so that means I really can't go. I've had a LOT of suicidal thoughts today. I drove around for an hour crying and listening to Adele. It's not great. I feel like I'm going to have to tell my husband what's happened pretty soon because I can't stand being around him and lying anymore. I think about suicide A LOT. I'm afraid this may be the beginning of the end of my marriage.
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Default Mar 09, 2017 at 11:06 PM
  #59
Just wrote out the check for the missed appointment fee for tomorrow and put it in the mailbox on the corner. He won't get it until Monday at least. Hopefully he'll think I'm dead.
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Default Mar 10, 2017 at 12:18 AM
  #60
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Just wrote out the check for the missed appointment fee for tomorrow and put it in the mailbox on the corner. He won't get it until Monday at least. Hopefully he'll think I'm dead.
Hey, hang in there. Please. It gets better.

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