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Default Nov 12, 2018 at 12:01 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by missbella View Post
. . .
I'm happy to learn of folks with such flawless judgment that they're immunized against any scam, charlatan or abuse of power. No wonder they visit this discussion to flaunt their infallibility.
And since they are not subject to the vulnerabilities or temptations that afflict some others -- no need to consider their judgment as having any value about the kind of situation the OP was writing about since, as one poster with this view said

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Originally Posted by DP_2017 View Post
. . .
This hasn't happened to me nor would it but I'm just merely saying in a hypothetical thing. I don't like people telling me who i should blame etc. I will decide that myself
The rest of us can decide for ourselves who is to blame, too.
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Default Nov 12, 2018 at 01:10 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by here today View Post
And since they are not subject to the vulnerabilities or temptations that afflict some others -- no need to consider their judgment as having any value about the kind of situation the OP was writing about since, as one poster with this view said

The rest of us can decide for ourselves who is to blame, too.
Various therapy associations have few agreements about ethics. The sole exception, the sacrosanct boundary, is prohibition against sexual relations with clients. The therapists is solely and always responsible and subject civil, professional and sometimes criminal penalties for transgression. The most superficial survey of psych ethics literature will uncover that.

At age 67, I've been entrapped by various charmers and charlatans and hope I'm better at recognizing them. But I can't foresee ever being so invisibly wise that no one will ever fool or exploit me again.
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Default Nov 12, 2018 at 01:51 PM
  #43
Hi all - OP here.

I thought I might weigh back in here. I certainly didn't expect this thread to take this course.

Relationships between T and patients can be exceedingly complex; this complexity makes blame about any specific outcome - good or bad - potentially less relevant. While the ethics of sexual relationships are crystal clear, I will say that I took a lot of responsibility (right or wrong) for what happened. Mine was a therapeutic relationship bound by poorly managed maternal transference and the child part's terror of losing his 'mother'. Therapy ended, I think, because of romantic attraction from the T to me; the post-T relationships that were 'offered' to me included none or sexual. With where I was at the time so deep in maternal transference, I had to take the sexual one. I couldn't tolerate being abandoned again. That was, in fact, what the therapy was about.

I have spent endless hours trying to sort out how it got there, what I did or didn't do right, how my therapist was so horrible vs the most amazing person I've ever known. The worst of it all is that it ended so suddenly (my choice) and we never even said goodbye. We never tried to figure out how to resolve things in a way that could minimize the damage - to both of us. Because while she may have violated an ethical boundary, she was undoubtedly ripped apart by this. Who's fault is that? Does it matter? The pain is the same. The damage is done.

I thought suing her could help me move on, and when that didn't work, it left me even worse. The horrible things her attorney said - I never knew if my ex-T said or believed them, or even knew about them - hurt beyond words. They violated every core belief I / Child part held on to about her care and love, held on to the certainty that she loved me no matter what. That Child part has now been victimized again, abandoned again. Worse for suffering through what was experientially for me an incestuous, abusive sexual relationship of child with mother.

You all can accept this or not. You can tell me I'm full of **** about the power of mishandled maternal transference. You can disregard my feelings of a child being sexually abused (and my heart goes out to those of you who have been victims.) But please try not to boil this down to an academic argument of who's fault it was and how I, or any other victim of therapist abuse, should have 'known better'. Because like it or not, all of us take responsibility in the aftermath. We have no choice because we're the ones left to try and put our lives back together. We're the ones who hate ourselves for what happened. We're the ones who see in it the validation of our own failures, weakness, and vulgarity.

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Default Nov 12, 2018 at 03:29 PM
  #44
My participation in this discussion is indirect: a therapist team scapegoated and bullied me before a therapy group. However I was seduced by a couple of "authority figures" and entangled with a married neighbor who sexually harassed me. A TELL responder recommended Susan Penfold's book, which said it was the lead up the sexual abuse that did the most damage.

I definitely blamed myself for a long time. I received almost no help from therapists themselves, most of whom seem terrified of discussion about exploitative therapists. Even Keith-Spiegel's "ethics" book "Red Flags in Psychotherapy" painted a fictional sexual abuse survivors as a clueless, oversexed starlet, and Amazon reviewers (presumably interested in ethics) rebuked me when I protested the disrespect of this.

I can speculate why therapists and their defenders castigate survivors of exploitation. It reminds me of cult lieutenants defending their guru and enforcing the hierarchy. The notion of the fallible, amoral therapist upends a sense of security and order. That is one of the many myths a survivor must examine when recovering from harmful therapy.

I can't imagine the hostility that overcomes those who interject in a painful conversation to shame survivors. To me, it replays the metaphor of families that silence its members trying to discuss exploitation and violation.

Last edited by missbella; Nov 12, 2018 at 03:48 PM..
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Default Nov 13, 2018 at 08:37 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Parva View Post
Hi all - OP here.

I thought I might weigh back in here. I certainly didn't expect this thread to take this course.

Relationships between T and patients can be exceedingly complex; this complexity makes blame about any specific outcome - good or bad - potentially less relevant. While the ethics of sexual relationships are crystal clear, I will say that I took a lot of responsibility (right or wrong) for what happened. Mine was a therapeutic relationship bound by poorly managed maternal transference and the child part's terror of losing his 'mother'. Therapy ended, I think, because of romantic attraction from the T to me; the post-T relationships that were 'offered' to me included none or sexual. With where I was at the time so deep in maternal transference, I had to take the sexual one. I couldn't tolerate being abandoned again. That was, in fact, what the therapy was about.

I have spent endless hours trying to sort out how it got there, what I did or didn't do right, how my therapist was so horrible vs the most amazing person I've ever known. The worst of it all is that it ended so suddenly (my choice) and we never even said goodbye. We never tried to figure out how to resolve things in a way that could minimize the damage - to both of us. Because while she may have violated an ethical boundary, she was undoubtedly ripped apart by this. Who's fault is that? Does it matter? The pain is the same. The damage is done.

I thought suing her could help me move on, and when that didn't work, it left me even worse. The horrible things her attorney said - I never knew if my ex-T said or believed them, or even knew about them - hurt beyond words. They violated every core belief I / Child part held on to about her care and love, held on to the certainty that she loved me no matter what. That Child part has now been victimized again, abandoned again. Worse for suffering through what was experientially for me an incestuous, abusive sexual relationship of child with mother.

You all can accept this or not. You can tell me I'm full of **** about the power of mishandled maternal transference. You can disregard my feelings of a child being sexually abused (and my heart goes out to those of you who have been victims.) But please try not to boil this down to an academic argument of who's fault it was and how I, or any other victim of therapist abuse, should have 'known better'. Because like it or not, all of us take responsibility in the aftermath. We have no choice because we're the ones left to try and put our lives back together. We're the ones who hate ourselves for what happened. We're the ones who see in it the validation of our own failures, weakness, and vulgarity.
Here's the thing, though. You went to therapy for healing, for help. And, as you said in your OP, it destroyed your life. It wasn't right It wasn't. No matter what your participation in it was, it was not right, on the part of society's licensed "helper". So you sought justice. And received more injustice. I appreciate you telling your story, and so completely. Don't know what more to say It sucks. In many ways society sucks right now. So sorry the lessons were so hardly learned for you, but thanks for sharing them so perhaps some of the rest of us can learn something.
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Default Jan 28, 2019 at 08:28 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Tac0cat View Post
I'm confused on how so many are blaming the therapist...where is the accountability for the patient??? I understand some may be at fault, but it takes two to tango. If I was in a position that I didn't feel comfortable or was inappropriate I'd tell them, and if I still felt off about it a week later I'd switch. There are some lines you don't cross. Morals and ethics are not one sided either.
I have learned that blaming the survivor of Therapist/Client sexual exploitation is very much the same as blaming a small child for incest.
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Default Jan 29, 2019 at 03:48 AM
  #47
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you can think and believe what you want but I suggest you don't post stuff likw this. it's super triggering for those of us who have actually been thru this situation. actually it feels damaging

this is one of those things that you can never truly know what it's like unless it happens to you.
Anything could technically be triggering to someone. I merely shared my views. I don't consider myself vulnerable just because I do therapy. I am not saying others don't or aren't but it's not how I view myself

I don't need to experience a situation to know the kind of person I am. Ive never been the blame type unless I'm fully blaming myself. I know how I view the world etc. I'm allowed to view things this way just as others can view the world as they do.

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Default Jan 29, 2019 at 03:51 AM
  #48
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I have learned that blaming the survivor of Therapist/Client sexual exploitation is very much the same as blaming a small child for incest.
Uh that's a bit ridiculous to assume everyone in therapy is child like. I for one am not and don't appreciate that assumption.

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Default Jan 29, 2019 at 03:57 AM
  #49
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Anything could technically be triggering to someone. I merely shared my views. I don't consider myself vulnerable just because I do therapy. I am not saying others don't or aren't but it's not how I view myself


I don't need to experience a situation to know the kind of person I am. Ive never been the blame type unless I'm fully blaming myself. I know how I view the world etc. I'm allowed to view things this way just as others can view the world as they do.
yes you can view the world exactly as you wish. I am asking that you refrain from making such comments on a sub forum where many of us are victims of therapist abuse and exploitation

no one is telling you that you cannot believe what you want. I'm just asking that you have the decency to keep certain things to yourself in certain situations

there is a time and a place for everything. stating your views such as you have here on this thread is not the place

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Default Jan 29, 2019 at 03:59 AM
  #50
I do not have ill will towards you dp, it's just upsetting to read others ask why someone would put the responsibility on a therapist for these types of scenarios

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Default Jan 29, 2019 at 10:13 AM
  #51
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Uh that's a bit ridiculous to assume everyone in therapy is child like. I for one am not and don't appreciate that assumption.
Where do they say everyone is?
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Default Jan 29, 2019 at 01:04 PM
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Ive never been the blame type unless I'm fully blaming myself.
This is actually a vulnerability
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Default Feb 10, 2019 at 08:29 PM
  #53
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This is a good source!
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Default Feb 11, 2019 at 01:40 AM
  #54
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This is a good source!
Yes, it is. I got a lot of help from them when I realized I was exploited by my ex-T. I got support and legal consultation.

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Default Feb 14, 2019 at 07:10 AM
  #55
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Thank you for posting this warning. We don't have enough of those warnings, so they are always needed.

Unfortunately, as you said, people usually don't heed it.

The fantasy of having a sexual relationship with one's therapist is one thing, but when it turns into reality that's a completely different story. Some people believe that the actual sexual engagement with the therapist would make everything better, because it'd be more "honest" than just to suffer an unrequited love, and while I am not someone who sees transference as a healthy thing, I know that turning transference fantasies into reality would harm you even more than tolerating the humiliating experience of your feelings not being returned. I don't know this from my own experience since I never had a sexual relationship with any of my therapists, but I've heard countless stories of people who have had that experience. None of those stories had a happy ending. NONE.

What I'd like everyone who entertains such fantasies to know is that before you decide to act them out remember that in case of a break up (which will come inevitably) you won't be able to deal with the ending the same way people deal with it in regular relationships.

In other relationships, when people date and break up, it starts differently and it ends differently. It starts on the equal footing right away and when things go wrong, people may get hurt, but they don't have the same sense of betrayal you will have if your sexual partner is your former therapist. The trauma you will go through when the relationship ends (which, trust me, it will) will be unparalleled to any other break ups. And, as others said, no one will be there for you. Our society is not evolved enough to understand that kind of trauma and to give you the support you need and our justice system is not equipped to deal with those cases.

Again, this was not my experience, but I've dealt with this issue for about 7 years now listening to people's stories, reading what is available on the subject, talking to those who have been trying to raise awareness about sexual abuse in therapy and writing about it on my blog as well. With all that, I feel like I understand the issue pretty well.
Thank you - perfectly said. And I don't think I would have listened. I thought I was different. If you had told me how far down I could go, I don't think I would have believed you. I had already survived an abusive marriage and come out strong. I thought I was strong enough to handle any feelings or complications.
But let's keep trying to put the message out there.
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