[wizkid]

My personal theory on where schizophrenia comes from, Constructive criticism is more then welcome, but expect a reply. I want to find out what is wrong with my theory so I can perhaps modify it.

Its a little long, but if you are interested then it wont take too long to read.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>

Introduction

In general there are three types of schizophrenia, each of which has a set of different symptoms. The first type includes a disorganized state that exhibits incomplete jumbled speech which is often accompanied by silliness, laughter and/or crying and is called disorganized schizophrenia. The second type is called catatonic schizophrenia, this deals with the patient going from one extreme of movement to the other, basically immobility to wild excitement. The third kind of schizophrenia deals grandiose delusions in which the person has an exaggerated sense of self, power, knowledge and identity. Abnormal psychology (2005) Well you have to ask what all three types have in common. Each one deals with emotion on some level, making emotion the core fundamental source of these symptoms in which we are going to analyze to try and pinpoint what exactly is taking place and why.

Disorganized schizophrenia

People who speak in a disorganized fashion as opposed to complete sentences are displaying symptoms of a known ailment called disorganized schizophrenia. (Abnormal psychology 2005) Now if you compare these symptoms to a dream state then you can draw a lot of similarities between the two, mainly the fact that the ideas being displayed come out in a jumbled sense that don’t necessarily have a purpose or goal. But what you can diagnose is the fact that even in this state the brain is trying to accomplish something very important. If you look at both the dream state and schizophrenia and come to terms with the fact that the mind basically runs on a state of equilibrium, then you can also come to the fact that the mind is discarding unneeded information or information that might be considered harmful to its equilibrium balance. Memories work like this, when something important is learned, it creates an associated response in the mind leaving a memory created by a spike of excitement in the neurons, however when that memory gets pulled to be used indirectly by another idea or comes up in a conversation indirectly by another idea, it leaves residue behind as that memory cannot occupy two spots in the brain. Later that night while you are sleeping the mind starts disposing this residue in the form of dreams to equalize the mind back to its nominal state by removing the ideas that are not holding any emotional value and therefore taking up unneeded space and valuable resources to keep the mind working as efficiently as possible. What basically happens is the conscious part of the mind shuts down and a minimal level of activity continues to function in the unconscious, the secondary ideas that had no emotional attachment begin to shut down or more so the neurons release the stimuli that was activated the previous day in an incoherent fashion, this release is the dream state that we experience while we sleep. Schizophrenia works very much in the same way, people with disorganized symptoms are basically walking dreamers and the symptoms have appeared because mental residue has accumulated in the brain and the brain can’t function normally without removing it. So the unconscious part of the brain takes control and tries to discard the mental residue to bring things back to an optimal working state. Well I guess we have to ask what causes the build up of mental residue, well stress comes to mind as it activates all kinds of unneeded ideas as stress is basically a representation of negative ideas being processed through the mind resulting in cyclical tendencies of thought repeating over and over working themselves up the stages towards mania. This causes an influx of unneeded mental activity bringing on these symptoms of schizophrenia, simply because the mind can’t simply coup with the excess of activity. Evolution in general is geared towards recognizing patterns, not the level of context and stress that society puts on us every single day, and basically causes the brain to overload if too much stimuli was taken in. Nightmares may also be related to schizophrenia, simply because there is a main idea associated with a nightmare, most of the time it deals with a personal insecurity. This insecurity is tied to an emotional or several emotional events which may come up for whatever reason and activate various ideas that will come out that night while sleeping. Well the nightmare acts as a hindrance to your sleeping patterns and keeps the mind more active then it should be effectively muffling the benefits that sleep provides. This in turn will leave ideas cluttering the mind and the patient will be more susceptible to symptoms of schizophrenia allowing the disorganized symptoms to come to the surface as the mind performs emergency cleaning to restore the equilibrium that has been instilled and maintained by generation upon generation of evolutionary cause and effect.

Catatonic schizophrenia

Catatonic schizophrenia deals with two extremes of movement arising from symptoms of schizophrenia. On one end the person may stop completely and hold a position for hours as the symptoms take effect, and on the patient may end up going into wild frenzy performing the emotion in full affect as it is released. Abnormal psychology (2005) Well both extremes of the symptoms deal with the same form of stimulation release but it’s really up to the external condition of the cell stimulant receptors themselves that determine what symptoms the patient takes on. They symptoms present are really the manifestation of over stimulated serotonin/dopamine cell receptors (any cells that produce a stimulant really) that creates the secretion of the parent chemical causing the patient to experience slowed motor skills where stimulation is being released all at once or the stimulant receptors have stopped producing it all together indicating something has burned out and needs rest to recuperate. This set of events virtually brings the patient to a halt in a middle of a thought causing an internal conflict, or on the opposite end of the spectrum the receptors will process the stimulation all at once bringing the patient into a frenzy state causing a rapid release of emotion as the core of the anxiety is released. This release is the result of previous built up emotional events where the unconscious has taken over to release much of the anxiety that has accumulated from those emotional events, as a result the core of the anxiety breaks through the conscious defense and is released in a flurry of emotional activity that ether overpowers the stimulant cell receptors shutting them down, or they respond accordingly allowing the core of the anxiety to be acted out in the external symptoms by the patient. Everything that is happening in regards to the erratic symptoms is happening for a very good reason, to restore the balance within the mind to try and bring some order back to the functioning process and expel the negative stimulus present and release some of the activity in the neurons. All in all it is just trying to prevent any more emotional damage from taking place.

Paranoid schizophrenia

The third and final main state of schizophrenia takes place when the patient begins to blow things out of proportion to delusional levels in direct retaliation to a form of direct criticism. Abnormal psychology (2005) This level of action obviously reflects the inner thoughts of the person, introverted thought that has become cyclical action that is burrowed into the brain itself leaving permanent negative memories that eventually drive the person into a paranoid state of schizophrenia about the instilled insecurity placed there by the criticism received. The state over stimulates the brain and drives the critical processes into an uproar bringing out the old memories of criticism that were received at the former date in question. These memories obviously had an impact on the individual as all criticism does, nobody likes to be criticized and some take it harder then others, especially when their childhood was filled with various instances of it only to have it crop up again later in life fueling the manifestation of previous negative stimulation bringing out old memories. It seems the patients stay in a period of argumentative, angry and sometime violent state but all in all stay very coherent when they speak and act out their frustrations, most definitely from the memories being activated as they showcase urgency and purpose in expressing themselves on the incident at hand . In response to this overwhelming stimulation the brain unconsciously takes hold of the person and tries to purge the stimulation all at once by dealing with the issue that caused them personal anguish. The argument that ensues attempts to bring some gratification to the patient to counter some of the negative effects that came about from the criticism received at a previous date. What happens to the brain itself is that resources are diverted from the part of the brain that is under tension and redirected to other parts of the brain intensifying all the other functions allowing the stress to dissipate over time. While the tension intensifies, the unconscious part of the mind takes hold of the conflict and tries to rectify it with argumentative measures aimed at bringing justification to the argument, the logical repression breaks down and the emotional state forcefully makes its way out of the patient in the form of schizophrenia. With out conscious unable to intervene and stop barrage of emotion the person rages on in a schizophrenic state at the mercy of the mind trying to repair itself. Now two things are being accomplished here, the stressed conscious part of the brain is resting up as it is shut down, just like it would in the dream state, and the mind is trying to conquer the emotion associated with the harmful memory that is wrecking havoc and causing stress. Now with both sides of the problem being appeased, the mind can restore the equilibrium once again and revert back to its normal optimal state.

The cause of schizophrenia

The cause of schizophrenia is actually very simple and it was overlooked in light of genetic evidence that would suggest it is past on in gene form. I personally don’t have enough information on the genetic side of things but what was overlooked was the fact that a baby developing in the womb will still receive negative stimuli passed on by the mother. This negative stimulus is the result of transference at the developing stage of the baby’s life because the mother was under some sort of stress at the time. Cells work like this, when the mother of a developing baby is under stress, the mind equalizes that level of stress over the body sort of like a heat sink does to a CPU to effectively alleviate some of that stress over a large area, however there is a bi product of this activity. The developing cells in the babies mind become agitated and very sensitive since they themselves do not have the capacity to cope with this new negative stimulus and hence become very “touchy and overdeveloped so early in the cells lifecycle” well in response to negative stimuli being received later in life, the cells end up taking on the emotional state past on by the mother and overload causing a release of pressure and anxiety which is fueled by the negative stimulus accompanied by experience which creates negative emotion creating an activated frenzy in the cells themselves. In essence they manifested to this schizophrenic state because the fundamentals of nurture were tarnished. I personally believe this explains why a mother giving birth to twins or more babies can pass on this defect and have them develop schizophrenia later on in life at a manifested stage, probably more so because of the increased size as it would be more demanding on the mother resource wise increasing the chances of developing symptoms because of the added incurred stress. This would also explain other ailments as well, because the premise that I just put forth would also create a “host of crying cells”, a crying cell is something that needs stimuli to function correctly very much like an addiction, and would explain why people end up becoming alcoholics, or drug addicts, because they could be sitting around and develop anxiety to do something fun, which in today’s society involves a social atmosphere and in general a good time, it could also explain things like ADHD where the child’s attention span is compromised because of the constant need to move around indicating active brain cells that need constant attention, there is also no doubt in my mind that mannerisms play a role as well but that would be covered elsewhere in another writing. This for the most part would explain substance abuse among other things. I can see why this would be confused with genetics but it really comes down to what has been stimulated and what hasn’t, it really is that simply. There is another aspect to this; amphetamines worsen positive effects while they minimize negative affects. Abnormal psychology (2005) This falls right in line with the stimulation theory, as more stimulation would in fact worsen the effects of catatonic symptoms, and it would lessen the effects if applied to burnt out stimulation receptors causing an artificial response and reactivate them again minimizing the negative affects and therefore speeding up slowed state of catatonic effects. This would cause some artificially stimulated movement that otherwise would not be there. Antipsychotic work on the basis of blocking the stimulation receptors from producing the reacting chemical and therefore minimize the positive affects but do almost nothing to the negative effects, simply because the negative effects are caused by burnt out receptors that are not producing stimulus anyways.

A possible cure

Honestly I don’t believe antipsychotics are the answer, for one reason and one reason only, when you give somebody a drug, there is an effect that grants the person
temporary relief but in the end there is a backlash effect. This backlash is what causes cyclical tendencies and actually damages the cells even more causing them to age to an un-repairable status over time, just like somebody who does drugs all their life and there body takes the brunt of the load, look at Stephen Tyler or Keith Richards for verification. This is negative stimuli being applied as an external stimulate. Not good. What you want to do is obtain stability, just peace and quiet to give yourself a boost of stability to try and relieve the accumulated anxiety, the next thing you should do is provide yourself with positive stimuli like working out every day which improves your perception of yourself, running for 30 minutes a day, telling yourself that you are number one or anything else that reminds you to do something good for yourself, accept your flaws and say you are going to change the future and make it better, after all I am sure you have heard laughter is the best cure, and it is absolutely true in this case because it is the negative stimuli that has given you this ailment. This level of action will begin to reverse the negative stimuli that has been plaguing your development for the last few years as you gain the confidence to persevere over the emotional attachment creating the internal turmoil. Doing so will provide a neurological change through a good way of life. It is not going to happen over night as the key to understanding a positive way of living is feeling good about what you are doing, trying to reach goals. This is what evolution is all about, goals and progression, doing good and improving yourself physically and mentally, but with the context of today’s world you are going to have to accept your flaws first, pushing them out of your mind is not going to help because they only come back in your dreams, literally. You need to face them and conquer them. It’s the only way to get better because you attack the cause of schizophrenia at the source. Cells are cells and they can be repaired, life is resilient as hell, give it the right motivation to work with and it will do wonders for how you feel and what you are able to do. Deal with the fundamentals first and everything else later. You will be able to repair what you have done to yourself in the span of a couple of yrs, after all there is no way to unravel what has happened to you over the course of your whole life in a night. It is going to take work and positive influence in many forms. Eating right for nutrition, exercise for that daily positive stimuli boost and most important, doing something productive with your time to make you feel better about yourself, don’t and I stress don’t fall into the cycle of relying on a pill to make you feel better. You have to take that negative stimuli and turn it into a positive experience which will heal the “crying cells” and bring you back to a normal positive state. Your mind will love you for it. And most of all you will love yourself for it and end up feeling a lot better in the process. Get some help if you need it, but please don’t take pills, you are not correcting the problem at the source and will continue to think in your negative cyclical patterns effectively making the symptoms that are present worse with time.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

[Christine329]

do u suffer from schizophrenia?

[gostryter]

Post deleted by gostryter

[spiritual_emergency]

Hello wizkid. I'm on a borrowed computer at the moment and won't have the opportunity to read your post as thoroughly as it deserves for at least a few days. I will however.

In the interim, there are a few threads here that you may find interesting. The first would be Schizophrenia and Hope; the second would be Presumed Causes of Psychosis and/or Schizophrenia. Both of those might provide some insights that would allow you to constructively criticize your own work.

[InACorner]

um... does this mean your a Scientologist....

i dont even have schizophrenia....but i can only imagine how horrible it can get....if someone was screaming in your ear...would you be able to run????
not me....

I am an intern at an inpatient psychiatric unit. I do group therapy with adults who have psychotic illnesses. I can assure you if you spent time with 15 people in one room, all of who have some level of psychoses, many of whom are actively psychotic, you would change your opinion of this illness, particularly its treatment course. I adore what I do... but it is very sad to see patients come back into the hospital repeatedly, due to not taking their medications. While many of the medications do have nasty side effects, I have also been fortunate enough to witness what a positive change can occur for indivduals who find the right medication, combined with a healthy lifestyle. WIth an illness that is biological in nature, medication is the answer, even before the lifestyle. You can't possibly lead a positive, healthy lifestyle when experiencing psychotic symptoms. They are not going to go away by themselves.

[wizkid]

That is a simply gorgeous bird. I have a parrot Senegal. Thing has an attitude problem but is a good bird none the less.

Anyways to your response. Although I do value your opinion, I do have to question the thinking process that these people are going through to obtain the change. Society is geared towards one line of thinking, linear thinking. And cyclical tendencies are almost impossible to change, because of the way our nervous system is programed to society. A life change will take a different way of looking at the world, and it’s sad to say that most if not near all won’t be able to change their thinking patterns. Its simply too different for them. But I am almost sure that if it can be self induced then it can be undone.

I myself beat AS syndrome through my weird theories. I also beat ADHD. You wouldn’t even realize the crap I had to put myself through to develop emotion. And I had to go through it again with ADHD. I literally had to sit myself down and make myself do other things that I liked to develop my attention span and it changed with training and practice. I had to put my mind through mass stimulation to develop my emotion side using not prescribed drugs but street drugs like ecstasy, 15 pills in a weekend, I was constantly high just producing as much serotonin as I could to enhance my grey area. Call me nuts or whatever, but by jump starting my emotional side which I predicted would work allowed me to begin talking to people, adapting to the situations around me instead of hiding from it. And I slowly learned that I could beat it. My mind changed allowing me to experience empathy; I started dreaming regularly, I never did before, ever. I advocate drug use if it is trying to create a change, not suppress it like antipsychotics do as the mind is trying to rebound on its own, however antipsychotics just prolong the effects by not allowing the natural release to take place. However with things like schizophrenia, I am 99% sure it is due to the things people value and the lifestyle they lead. It’s self induced and if you don’t change that lifestyle then nothing is going to change. Ever. That’s just the way I feel about it. And I have studied the symptoms enough to know what to look for and why they begin to appear.

All in all it begins with thinking patterns. Sleep is a very good remedy to schizophrenia as it drains the mind of ideas. I have many writings including dreams among many other things, which I can almost be sure of.

[spiritual_emergency]

pinksoil: WIth an illness that is biological in nature, medication is the answer, even before the lifestyle.

Do you have a source for this statement? I am not aware of any scientific data which conclusively demonstrates that schizophrenia is biological in nature or that medication is the answer. It is my understanding that the biology theory of schizophrenia is a theory only. This should be emphasized for the benefit of laypersons in the reading audience.

[spiritual_emergency]

InACorner: um... does this mean your a Scientologist....

InACorner, I'm not certain if your question is directed to me or to wizkid. I can't answer for him however I can tell you that I am not a Scientologist. Nor, to the best of my knowledge, are any of the clinicians listed in the links I provided for wizkid's reference.

I confess that I am somewhat confused by the question. While I recognize that Scientologists are hardly admired or accepted in some circles, I fail to see what that has to do with this conversation. Many individuals research, study, investigate and question the causes and treatments for schizophrenia -- is that what defines one as a Scientologist?

[InACorner]

hi spirtual emergency,

actually the question was directed towards wizkid....
a scientologist is someone who believes in no medication and that the only way to overcome an illness is through a healthy lifestyle

and this actually has alot to do with it.....Wizkid is explaining his theories....and his ideas are very similar to Scientology

ouch. i wouldn't want to equate believing in overcoming mental illness without medication with scientology. there are many people who believe that it is better to overcome mental illness without medication who consider themselves far removed from scientologists spiritual / religious views about aliens and so on and so forth.

personally... i have a great deal of sympathy for the notion that the best way to recover from schizophrenia is through social supports (if you can get it) and i'm very sceptical indeed about medication for schizophrenia.

how come?

WHO study. they couldn't believe the findings so they replicated the study. they did three studies in all. they found that the worst predictor for recovery from schizophrenia was living in a developed western nation (with better access to psychiatrists and medications). Basically... two thirds of people with a dx of schizophrenia recovered in the developing nations whereas only one third of people with a dx of schizophrenia recovered in the so-called developed nations. of course the million dollar question is precisely what it is that accounts for this discrepency in recovery rates (yes the groups were matched for severity).

there are some psychiatrists (who identify with the anti-psychiatry movement but NOT the scientology religion / spirituality) who have opened their homes up to people attempting to recover from schizophrenia in a medication-free way. they offer accounts of how these people managed to pass through crisis and get back to their lives without medication.

there are some psychiatrists (who identify with the anti-psychiatry movement but NOT with scientology) who have maintained (and provided evidence for their claims) that medication works by SEDATING people (a chemical straight-jacket). while this is useful for managing people when you have a busy institution that is under-staffed these medications tend to cause such things as ventricular enlargement, tardive dyskinesias (movement disorders), and tardive dementias (loss of cognitive functioning) when used long term.

if you look at the chemical action of anti-psychotics they work similarly to lobotomy. the effects of anti-psychotics were praised (upon their invention) as having all the benefits of lobotomy with the added bonus of being reversible (though now we are finding that they cause longer term brain damage). many of the negative symptoms of schizophrenia might well be the result of medication...

this is of course controversial. it is a scientific theory that is on the table, however, and it isn't given the attention that it deserves. the reason why it isn't given the attention that it deserves is largely sociological...

i think it is important to take some of these considerations seriously, however. and... to not conflate them with scientology...

[spiritual_emergency]

InACorner: a scientologist is someone who believes in no medication and that the only way to overcome an illness is through a healthy lifestyle

Well... I certainly believe that medication should be avoided if at all possible. We already know that most medications have substantial side-effects such as diabetes, tardive dyskinesia, stroke -- even death. To call attention to these well-established facts does not make one a Scientologist and is part of the reason there is tremendous value in studying cultures and settings where drugs are used minimally or not at all, i.e.,

<blockquote><font color=red>Among those who went through the OPT program, incidence of schizophrenia declined substantially, with 85% of the patients returning to active employment and 80% without any psychotic symptoms after five years. All this took place in a research project wherein only about one third of clients received neuroleptic medication.

Source: Dialogue is the Change</font></blockquote>As for a healthy lifestyle -- we could likely all benefit from improved nutrition and regular exercise regardless of whether we have been given a "diagnosis" or not. Again, this may be associated with Scientology but it does not render one a Scientologist. For that matter, a Scientologist, Buddhist, Christian, Pagan, Hinduist, etc. who is speaking such truths is still speaking the truth regardless of their religious affiliation. There is no one-size-fits-all form of treatment which is why it's necessary to critically examine our beliefs surrounding the causes of schizophrenia and the treatments that are used.

Bear in mind that the history of the treatment of schizophrenic is bizarre, barbaric and brutal. Schizophrenics have been burned alive, tortured, jailed, drowned, ridiculed, electrocuted, experimented upon, traumatized, sterilized, locked away and murdered ... treatment that was often meted out at the hands of those who were charged with caring for and helping them. Those practices only ended because others were willing to question the practice and demand change. In that respect, I sincerely welcome voices like wizkid's who are willing to examine, poke, prod, question, criticize, explore and theorize. Are we helping or hindering? Are we producing cure or disease? These are vitally important questions that should be asked by those who have the courage and wherewithal to ask them.

See also: <a href=http://radgeek.com/gt/2006/03/18/over_my>Concerning the Soul of Brutes</a>

[okiedokie]

"I personally don’t have enough information on the genetic side of things but what was overlooked was the fact that a baby developing in the womb will still receive negative stimuli passed on by the mother. This negative stimulus is the result of transference at the developing stage of the baby’s life because the mother was under some sort of stress at the time."

Are you kidding me???

I'd like to be supportive, but I happen to work in psych like many others here and that's just complete rubbish.

Additionally, medications give some of these patients the only peace they have ever known. Meds aren't perfect but in many instances, the benefits clearly outweigh the risks.

Okie

Actually there are a lot of things that go on when a person is stressed. Cortisol is released (which is a neuro-toxin) and the like. There is evidence that neonates are affected by the physiological and psychological state of their birth mother. If the birth mother is very stressed then this does indeed have a considerable influence on the developing infant. Neonates are able to pick up on their birth mothers being distressed and we are able to measure neonates increased physiological arousal matching their birth mothers increased physiological arousal.

To say that someone is talking 'complete rubbish' isn't a particularly supportive thing to say. I wouldn't have thought that it would have taken very much charity to extract what I extracted above.

You beg the question when you say that the benefits clearly outweigh the risks of taking medications in many instances. There are many people (with training as psychiatrists) who believe that the benefits are largely those of sedating people on the psychiatric ward such that they are more manageable to the staff. The long term side-effects of tardive dyskinesias and dementias shouldn't be under-estimated. People used a similar argument to you (and some still do) to advocate lobotomy. I think that it is an open question and the answer is very controversial...

[wizkid]

Yeah man. I came to the same conclusion just by looking at how people develop over the years. It always seems that the people under less stress, came from a good family, had good upbringing were always less prone to things like schizophrenia and developed better in general. This indicates that there is a greater factor then genetics at play as it is externally induced.

This draws the notion that schizophrenia is self induced. Hands down stress is the biggest cause. You just have to take a look around to realize that.

As for okies post, well I beg to question what these people are doing to try and change there thinking patterns. Not to mention I don’t think much of modern ways to treat things, simply because they take a selfish way of looking at things, what can I learn... yet if you actually say what can you teach me, you learn a lot more in the end. And if it is indeed self induced, then it can be reversed. However the human mind gets programmed by night and day cyclical behavior that is indeed influenced by environmental factors around them, this would indicate that thought process is very hard to change, especially for people who are constantly focusing on needs instead of goals. It basically consumes there whole existence.

The only reason why I am against drugs is because drugs block a release. Yet you are denying nature’s way of trying to bring back a state of equilibrium. The very same fundamentals in which nature and our bodies were founded on. You don’t go against the rules that govern us. You just make the symptoms worse in the end as 1. You become dependant on the drug. 2. You stop the stimulation from getting released bottling it in the head. The best natural defense is exercise to bring your metabolism up to speed with the anxiety so your body can dispose of it, or sleep so the ideas working you up can dissipate. A natural way based on the rules of natures. Just like in life we tend to go with your strengths, well why not do the same with ailments. The body is resilient as hell; why not work with it to strengthen it?

[okiedokie]

Alex,
Wizkid has already identified himself as the most "interesting person who will ever be on PC." I'm sure he knows all about cortisol and adrenaline and such, which is why I didn't elaborate.

To say I'm not charitable is not even close to fair, but then I know how you like to push buttons and get a good debate going.

It may be true that my argument in the present for the appropriate use of medications, is similar to the one articulated years ago in support of lobotomy. But that was years ago. We do better, when we know better.

As far as my stating that the benefits outweigh the risks in the use of psychotropic medications, I was referring to treating mental illness on an outpatient basis in order to give people who suffer from MI with some opportunity for functionality. I am not referring to sedating patients in an inpatient setting. Certainly a well-trained psychiatrist would not make an ignorant statement such that the "benefits of (psych meds) are largely those of sedating people on the psychiatric ward such that they are more manageable to staff." It is in fact true that inpatient psych patients are sedated, some more than others, depending on their precipitating crisis and diagnoses. It is to give their brains a rest and a chance to heal, not to "make them more manageable for staff."

I agree that the long-term side effects of medications require further consideration and study. And we all know that any decision to take, or not take a medication must be an informed and thoughtful one.
Take care,
Okie

when one person says that another person is talking 'complete rubbish' i think that there are indeed grounds for saying that the person who says that is being uncharitable. 'but then you know how i like to push buttons'... i was trying to get you to rethink your dismissal of what the poster had to say. but then that is the buzz word on pc for me really - isn't it? say 'arguing' and 'debating' at me often enough and you might even manage to get me blocked from certain forums

:-O

you said that we know better than to give lobotomies now...
that may be so but it is still up for grabs whether we will eventually get into a similar position where we know better than to give anti-psychotics.

anti-psychotics were initially praised for their lobotomy like effects.

they were used extensively in order to sedate inpatients
now they are used extensively in order to sedate outpatient
it is an empirical matter but evidence seems to be that they cause neurodegeneration. seems that their sedative effects are precisely their mechanism of action and they affect animals, people with schizophrenia, and people who aren't mentally ill similarly. they function to sedate the person. less likely to report delusions and hallucinations and less likely to become absorbed by intense feelings and such if we can just sedate the hell out of the person... forever if necessary.

there are psychiatrists who see psychiatry (and medication) in the above respect. i'm not talking random weirdos. i'm talking qualified psychiatrists with years of training and experience.

of course a lot of consumers don't want to hear it... but it is important to support those who are taking it seriously...

[wizkid]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
okiedokie said:
It is to give their brains a rest and a chance to heal, not to "make them more manageable for staff."

I agree that the long-term side effects of medications require further consideration and study. And we all know that any decision to take, or not take a medication must be an informed and thoughtful one.


</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Sorry to cut in on your guys discussion. But I have a bit of an issue with the above statement..

What exactly are they healing by sedating them? This would indicate a slowing in metabolism. Correct? Well the body needs that metabolism to heal itself. Nothing has changed; they go to bed thinking the same thing and will wake up thinking the same thing. In my opinion a good psychiatrist would actually strengthen the metabolism with social activity, physical activity, laughing etc. And generally try and enjoy their company and try and replace the bad thoughts with good thoughts. That’s what somebody does who truly cares. It’s in my opinion that it doesn’t need any more studying, concentrates on what makes people good and good things will in fact come from it.

I came to the conclusion about the metabolism bit because of something I realized about evolution. Everything evolved as the trees evolved. 350 million yrs ago and the vertebrates appeared. This would indicate that all of a studden the oxygen content in the air went up, meaning more oxygen and more direct stimulation for cells. This is positive stimulation. Things grew and thrived during this time. Also happened again when the temperate forests evolved. We as human being crave this type of stimulation whether we receive it from one another or through physical means or whatever. Drugs do no such thing, they work against the laws of evolution and only offer a short term affect.

I’m also willing to bet a lot of money changes hands near the top to get drugs approved with the FDA. We glorify these things to the end it seems and we as a people accept all the information coming from these guys and create this good image that everybody seems to suck up. Yet it is blind ignorance not to question it. And not all is what it seems. Simple rules of thumb verify that. That’s why I can’t get over time and time again where I see these studies released and I say to myself, I could have told you that a long time ago and saved you the millions of dollars. It’s completely redundant in my opinion.

And please don't try and alienate me by my previous comments. I couldn't care because I stand by everything I have said. And I certainly won’t reiterate it back as it isn't my business to do so as I am confident enough to know the difference. Keep the debate somewhat level without resorting to egotistical issues. Thx

Chris

I just wanted to say that I think this thread is awesome!

Good for you alexandra, wizkid and spiritual emergency for questioning the "norm"!!

Questioniong is always good and from what I've seen, this subject of anti-psychotics being used indefinately to "control" (that's my view) people with little regard to life altering side affects, can only lead to the evolving of our knowledge and giving those that struggle a better chance.

Who would want to live out their life not being able to think straight and/or function on their own, due to drugs?? why settle for such a life??... when-- perhaps.... changing the ways one thinks and interprets things could be what is needed. (like: feeling about the voices in a different way)

I know a psychologist that has many many years experience and believes talk therapy without drugs is the answer in most cases of schizophrenia.(and he's definately NOT a scientologist) I don't understand why some people get so defensive with the idea that meds could be just as much the problem(if not more) as the person's thinking, in the worsening of this affliction...... do some want to "protect" the drug companies???

I have a cousin that has been on the streets-- literally homeless, for 20 years-- diagnosed with schizophrenia..... I know how meds have NOT helped her.

I hope that soon there will be a healthy solution for this, without harmful side affects... I think it will happen... and who knows, when it does, we might look back with aghast at how we treated these people with life damaging drugs.....

mandy.... this is all my view and opinion....

i'm enjoying this discussion too. are you okay okiedokie? i wanted you to know that i do appreciate your input on this thread. i didn't mean to imply or suggest that i didn't, but i was a little concerned that this thread not degenerate to personal attacks and stuff...

i think that part of the problem with the medication debate is that consumers and psychiatrists both feel strongly about it. psychologists often have strong views too, i guess.

- some consumers are very much opposed to anti-psychotics. they report that they sedate them and they do not like that.
- some consumers are very much in support of anti-psychotics. they appreciate the sedation. another issue can be... that if the medication works for them then that is often taken to be some support for the notion that their delusions / hallucinations etc were organic (hence outside their control) and that schizophrenia is a treatable condition (just like diabetes!). if people stay on their meds then their condition is being controlled (just like diabetes) and the people with schizophrenia etc who act violently... well... thats because they weren't getting the right medications. basically... a lot of consumers are very supportive of medications because of what they take to be the political and social consequences of believing in the efficacy of medications. the political and social consequences don't follow as a matter of logical necessessity... but it is often believed that they do.

- some psychiatrists are very keen on medications because they believe that medications are what assures psychiatry's status as a specialist field within medicine. if psychiatrists didn't have medications then psychiatry wouldn't exist as a specialist field in medicine. that doesn't follow as a matter of logical necessessity but psychiatrists are often very afraid that their specialist field (their niche in society) would dissolve if medications aren't prescribed and... there are a fair few who are fearful of neuro-biological advances and the encroachment of neurology as well. there is a way out of this but i don't think the average psychiatrist reflects on that a great deal.

- some psychiatrists are very skeptical of medications. typically those who are also psychotherapists. psychiatrists who are interested in the history of psychiatry (and who consider past and present abuses of psychiatry) and / or psychiatrists who are interested in issues around involountary treatment and hospitalisation and the social consequences of psychiatry are often more circumspect about the use of medication (if not actually opposed to anti-psychotics). such people are often labelled 'anti-psychiatrists' because the concern is that if they are right... psychiatry would dissolve (no longer be a specialist field within medicine). the fact that they are labelled 'anti-psychiatrists' reveals the fear that this kind of view threatens the whole field of psychiatry. it is revisionary to be sure but it doesn't undermine the foundation (that is my view anyway).

- some psychologists have 'psychiatrist envy'. they see that psychiatrists have more power with respect to higher pay, power to involountarily treat / commit, power to prescribe medications. hence the emergence of psychologists who wish to / train to prescribe psychiatric medications. there are interesting sociological issues here around whether such people manage to be 'second rate psychiatrists' or whatever... of course they would indignantly protest by drawing attention to their numerous years of study... my take is 'whatever whatever i don't understand why you are so keen to embrace the biological model when it is so problematic'.

- some psychologists are very sceptical indeed about medications. in part because they want to defend their profession such that it is not viewed as 'second rate psychiatry'. to ensure that they keep their nieche. to try and get the respect that psychiatrists seem to have. funny how psychiatry is considered a bit of a second-rate field within medicine and yet psychologists often have this funny deference / slight fear of it...

weird weird weird.