A question from a sub to a Dominant

Hi,

I have a question that I think only a Dominant can answer (here or through PM if that would be better). This is long, but I think this information will help to put my question in context.

I'm trying to understand why someone who is self-identified and intrinsically a Dominant would give up the possibility of the full-time D/s relationship he says he's always wanted in favor of a vanilla relationship that requires him to hide his true nature?

My ex (my Sir if you will) and I had a relationship that was rocky because neither of us would come out and say what we wanted a full-time D/s relationship. Over the last 3 years he has broken up with me and then come back several times. When we finally truly opened up to each other this Fall about what we wanted, we discovered that we wanted the same thing, but neither had expressed it explicitly, and had become frustrated because we didn't think the other cared enough.

I am a service-oriented sub. I derived great pleasure in honoring, serving, and obeying him, but I take full-responsibility for not making that more clear to him before the last few months. He is someone who is a combination protector, provider, and Master. Our relationship included D/s, as well as bondage, gags, flogging, eye mask, knife play, wax play, discipline, sensory overload and deprivation, and service. He also had my consent to engage in "non-consensual" use of my body for his pleasure. In addition he is a total br**st man who desires an Adult Nurturing/Nursing relationship (ANR) wherein I would induce lactation and he would have the right to suckle at will.

During our most recent rocky patch he decided to start seeing someone at work (This is where our not being completely honest before the last few months about what we really wanted comes in). I walked away, but he said he was trying to sort out his life and didn't want to lose me and for the first time he told me explicitly that he wanted a full-time D/s ANR. He has also told me twice in the last six months that he was thinking about asking me to move in with him, but never actually came out and did so.

I should add that one of our problems is that he moved about a 45 minutes/1 hour away from me, whereas he was only 15 minutes away when we started seeing each other. Also, one of his concerns, until we really started talking was that I wasn't submissive enough. I explained to him that because of our back and forth and me not knowing if he was going to break up with me again because I unwittingly did something to displease him I practiced self-preservation by holding back and not giving myself to him completely but that I wanted to and would if he was free. He turned 50 this year and is feeling his "mortality," and she is much younger. Also he feels that at his age he shouldn't be so consumed with his lusts, passions, and thoughts and desires for sex and getting fulfillment through a D/s relationship. Also this girl is flat chested and doesn't really do it for him physically (His words, not mine.)

Again, I take responsibility for my actions because I really want(ed) that full-time D/s ANR with him. As I finally expressed explicitly in January, he (not some abstract concept of a Dominant) is the one for me, the one I want to build a life with, serve, honor, obey, make proud, and nurse/nurture.

But all this time he kept "not-exactly" seeing his coworker. Because of that I said I wouldn't have a relationship with him because I didn't want to be a part of cheating. But we still didn't walk away from each other. But we were only a loud to communicate through email. Through all of this he was still saying that he didn't want to string me along, he would want to see me again if he wasn't in a relationship, and he wanted me in his life.

What I can see now is that he was stringing me along for the last six months in favor of this co-worker. I was being very naive. I never asked him to end that other relationship because even though I want(ed) him, I also want(ed) him to be happy even if that wasn't with me. As I told him time and again I would back off so that he would have room to let his new relationship flourish. To which he told me there was no need to back off because "it was all good."

Finally last month I came right out and expressed to him just how upset all of this drama was making me. Once again he said that he didn't know what to say and he didn't want to string me along, but he also didn't want to not know me and he asked if I thought it would be better if we stop communicating. I have always followed his lead in our relationship. (He is the man and I believe that is a man's role, and I as the woman have other roles to play in a relationship. Yes old fashioned, but true for me.) I got really frustrated with the ambiguity and wrote him that if he really wanted me in his life then he should show me even if just platonically. If we couldn't get together for a cup of tea in public, talk and text as well as email, that if I couldn't be a real part of his life again, then I was just his "secret" and "spare" and I didn't want to be reduced to email and sloppy seconds.

I had never spoken like that to him before and when I realized how disrespectful I had been I apologized. (Here I should add that I was partly stressed out because my beloved dog hadn't been well and I was feeling very upset in general and taken for granted by him because I had always been there for him and even up to me sending that email I was still happy to wait for him.).

His response is what has lead me to this post. He told me that he obviously isn't a positive part of my life and he wants us to be "people we used to know." I was floored and still am heart broken because I don't understand why he would have such a strong reaction. I have reached out to him but he said there is nothing to talk about and he wished me well. I asked him explicitly if that meant he does not want is to have contact again. His response was that "never is a long time." I asked for clarification and he never responded. I reached out to him a couple more times and no response. Just like that I had become someone irrelevant to him, who didn't warrant the courtesy of any kind of acknowledgment, even if just to say leave me alone.

After two weeks I finally wrote him to tell him I wanted to give him his things back and if he would tell me when he wouldn't be at his house I would leave his things on his porch or if I didn't hear from him, I would swing by and if his car wasn't there I'd leave them and go or if it was, I would try again another time. I also said how sorry I am that I seemed to add so much negativety to his life that he feels he needs to "unknow," erase, and ignore me; that I never meant to upset him; and that although he didn't want anything to do with me, I didn't dislike him and I wouldn't delete him, so if ever he needed anything now or years from now I would be there for him without condition or question.

He responded with a message telling me there was nothing I needed to return and to not go to all that trouble. My instinct was to write back and say "ok" or something, but I didn't and I haven't. That was almost two weeks ago.

Which gets me back o my original question. As a Dominant, given the possibility of the relationship you've always wanted, with someone you've wanted it with, i.e. a full-time D/s ANR where you didn't have to hide who you are on an intrinsic level --- one where you are free and encouraged to express your Dominance and to have a partner and sub who would gladly provide the nursing/nurturing you've always desired --- why would you throw that away for a vanilla relationship where you have to be on your best behavior and pretend not to have the kinky urges and desires you've clearly expressed that you need and want? Most of all, why would you tell this person that she is someone you don't want to know? (One more thing to add, he told me that his first marriage started falling apart when he told his ex-wife about his kinks.)

He has made his decision to cast me aside, so that isn't my question. I truly am confused about what might motivate someone to do this and if anyone out there can help me understand I would be very grateful. I know I'm no innocent or victim here and I don't hate all men or think he's some evil person. He has done what he thinks is right for him and I do and will respect that, which is why I haven't made any attempts to communicate with him since my email saying I want to return his things. But I sincerely want to understand what might be his perspective.

I feel really lost and heartbroken and keep wondering if I am such an awful and worthless person that he would prefer to recreate the very conditions (acting vanilla when one isn't) that led to his divorce when the option to live the life he says he's always dreamed of is possible. Especially since he has been the one to keep our relationship going and who has come back to me multiple times over the last 3.5 years.

None of this makes sense to me. If anyone out there would like to share any insight about their own experiences (I won't ask you to comment on this specifically, since you don't know either of us and you've only heard my side of things, which is obviously colored by how I feel and felt.) or even any comments about what I've written I would be very very grateful.

Thank you for reading this. I know it's very long.

I do not have any subject matter expertise, so I would not comment and cannot offer any helpful advice, but I am wondering how this oxymoron can exist - how can you give consent for "non-consensual" use of your body, for whatever purpose? If you give consent, that makes the use consensual - no?

Good question. It's a kind of shorthand way of saying he had a right to satisfy his physical needs and desires without having to have an explicit "yes" every time. We had safe words if things were more than I could handle. He was always very good about helping me to explore and move beyond what were my hangups. But he always honored my hard limits.

One thing I didn't say earlier is that we also had fun together. Unlike a lot of other couples we actually got along better when we were able to spend stretches of time together, rather than having to juggle a longer-distance relationship.

I hope this answers your question. If you have other questions please feel free to ask.

Oh, you did, totally. Basically, you gave him a broad OK that exempted him from asking for a specific OK on a case-by-case basis. But you retained the veto power on that case-by-case basis. Definitely makes sense.

Yes that is exactly right.

I don't think this really ultimately is about D/s at all. I think this guy messed you about because of his own issues. I don't think it's your fault, and I don't think it's possible to find sense. What you need is someone who respects you more, as unfortunately he ultimately behaved very selfishly. Reading your post, I don't think it sounds like a healthy D/s set-up. I think you felt bad about yourself because he strung you along. You deserve much better.

Also. I have dabbled in the scene before and would just like to say: no decent Dom would ever ever let you feel bad about expressing your feelings. It's not disrespectful to say how you feel, it's important! Submission doesn't mean being a doormat, and he made you feel like you had to be a doormat, by the sounds of it.

I would like to say that I think you deserve better that to be strung along like that.

My only thought is maybe his kinkiness scares or shames him. My wife introduced me to kinky play and some stuff I really enjoyed. It was a pleasurable experience. There was one thing that we tried that I didn't feel so good about. She had a rape fantasy. It was kinda scary and exciting the first time we tried. I did it because it was her fantasy and I wanted to please her. I felt guilty that I enjoyed it. It felt wrong and it felt good at the same time. Do you think he feels guilty over his fantasy and is pushing you away because he doesn't want to engage in these activities anymore?

Yes tinyrabbit "messed about" is exactly how I feel. I've been trying to reconcile the fact that he told me that he could handle my honesty. When it came down to it not only couldn't he handle my honesty, but he turned it around and made me feel bad about having done what he asked, which was to be honest with him about my thoughts and feelings. That's been one of the most painful things in all this. He could have said he didn't want to continue our relationship. He knows me inside out and he chose the most dehumanizing way he could think of to end things; a way guarantee to inflict the maximum pain without him needing to assume any responsibility for his actions.

You're comment is especially helpful because I've been trying to sort what part of all of this had to do with our D/s dynamic versus what was really a result of emotional manipulation on his part and attendant increasing feelings of guilt and inadequacy on my part.

Hi Faucet. Love your user name. I hope I can be of some help to you, though please do keep in mind that D/S relationships are...a little foreign to me (simply meaning I have no experience with them, and that it's not something I fully understand...lol not judging at all ). That being said, I may not be able to fully grasp and incorporate the aspects of that into my answer to you, though I still do think I can give some input.

To me, it seems ultimately that the key issue here is HIM, not you. While it seemed to me you two had some communication difficulties in the beginning, once that was rectified, you did everything in your power to make the relationship work. You were, based on everything you posted, the driving force in communication and reconciliation in your relationship. Even when you were "disrespectful" (which believe me, you were NOT. I understand, albeit vaguely, the sub to dom aspect, but even then, demanding respect is a very simple and necessary part of any relationship, vanilla or otherwise), YOU were the one who tried to redress issues in the relationship. To me, it seems his focuses weren't on you...which is, in my humble opinion, ridiculously stupid on his part. He desired a d/s relation as much as you did, and you did everything in your power to provide that for the both of you (I mean honestly...I don't know the anatomical implications behind it, but you induced lactation for him? I'd call that dedicated). Though you are right in saying that we only have your side of things, I would tell you that you are incorrect in saying he is the one to keep the relationship going. A healthy relationship needs trust, honesty, and communication. You, I think, provided much more of that than he did to you.

What is ultimately clear to me is that he shunned an ideal relationship for some fling...as to why? I can't think of a logical rationale for that, try as I may. What I would tell you though is that, hard as it is, he has done you a favor in the long run. As willing and as dedicated as you were to making that relationship work, you deserve someone who is as dedicated and respectful to the relationship as you are. In that guy, you didn't have that. You deserve better. I think his behavior to you is incredibly callous and entirely unwarranted.

Furthermore, please understand that this is nothing you have done wrong. This is him. All him. You are not an "awful or worthless" person, by any means. You've done nothing wrong. Please, if you take nothing else away from this post, do take that.

I do hope I was of some help. I know it hurts...I've been cheated on before twice. I'd leave you in parting by saying that simply by virtue of you wanting the relationship in spite of that makes you a better and more dedicated person than I could hope to be. I tried to work past cheating once...lol do believe me when I say you have done better than I.

Take care, and know I wish you all of my best (and I do hope that your dog is doing okay...I know how painful sickness of a pet can be).

Hugs,
Harley

PS: I do hope you don't mind me asking, but...as I mentioned, D/S relationships are not something I'm well versed in, and given so many people have posts here regarding them, I try to learn as much as I can. Helps me help others. Usually, I gain perspective simply by reading the posts, but occasionally things simply fly over my head. That said, and please do forgive my curiosity...is "knife play" what it sounds like? I'm sorry to ask...lol I'd google, but I'm on my college connection, and with the DNS blocks in place, quarantines strictly enforced, and me absolutely not buying the whole "we don't monitor your web surfing" caveat, I really don't trust my computer to answer that for me.

Knife play is about physical or mental stimulation to danger (or fear). Knife are about being weapons and having a knife as part of a sexual encounter add danger to it. Knifes can be used as a temperature sensation. Being tied up and unable to protect yourself. The sense of something dangerous being dragged across your body can be exciting to some. A knife also usual feels cold when it is at room temperature. Your body is about 90 deg and the knife is about 70 degress so it create a sensation of coldness when it touches your skin. Knifes can also be used to peel off wax after wax play. The wax is a sensation of heat and the knife gives a sensation of coldness.

Yes Adam that's the other aspect of what I'm trying to sort out and why I don't hate him or think he's evil. I definitely think he's been emotionally manipulative, but his motivation is self-preservation, rather than true cruelty. AND I also think he's afraid of what he wants AND that he's probably lying to himself. I believe and know that sometimes nothing is scarier than the possibility of getting what we've always wanted and so it can be easier to run in the opposite direction. Hence my ambivalence and unwillingness to cast him as the evil villain. This may sound odd, but a good chunk of me just feels sad for him because he's decided to actively deny who he is and wants. I can understand the impulse to want to fit into the vanilla world, but I can't see how anyone can turn off such specific desires and needs. It's like with his ex-wife. He's told me that I am his ideal woman. The thing is that his ex wife and I are total opposites --- I mean total. Yet here he is again pursuing someone who is the opposite of his ideal and establishing a relationship with someone who won't be able to meet his most fundamental primal needs. At the same time he is holding me to a standard that no one could possibly meet.

Thank you Adam. I appreciate the response. As I said, I hate to ask, but my college doesn't play around whatsoever regarding internet activities. I've gotten quarantined for the most trivial, innocent things...it's ridiculous. -_-

I do certainly agree with you that he's likely lying to himself...a lot of it to me seems like he isn't sure of what he wants, you know? I wouldn't necessarily call him evil, but your emotions shouldn't be a casualty in his pursuit of figuring out what it is he wants. My point is more to that he should have more respect for you than to cheat on you, and then to be so callous in breaking things off.

Harley,

Please don't worry about asking questions. I learn a lot from questions in every aspect of my life. In order to respond I have to be clear in my own mind and articulate clearly what I believe and think and that is a very good thing!

Thank you Faucet. I just didn't want to shift focus from you with my curiosity, is all.

I think he just wasn't that into you. He was into himself, and he strung you along. What's the point in saying he was your ideal woman if he was going to mess you about? He is not your ideal man. Your ideal man is someone who treats you better.

I think you have been confusing submission with something else as it sounds like you lost sight of your own needs and just bent over backwards for this guy. Personally I think his behaviour is an insult to the scene. A good Dom will be interested in you, your feelings, your needs, your limits. Submission doesn't mean putting those aside. It's not disrespectful to say you are upset; indeed it's quite common to get emotional (eg subdrop). Sounds like he was good at taking what he wanted and lousy at aftercare.

You deserve better. You need to value yourself more.

Although I do not know the specifics of the submissive/dominant relationships, I do think that you went too far.

"I want to return your things to you. (optional: "if you still want them,") Let me know how you would like to arrange the hand-off" would have been sufficient. Just neutral/matter-of-factly.

Especially since you were NOT in the submissive relationship at the point of your writing to him about his things, why bend over backwards?

Thank you all for your comments. They have given me much to think about and are very helpful.

I can see now that what started out as a healthy D/s relationship morphed into something through which I have lost sight of myself. I have been carrying around a lot of guilt and thinking that if I tried harder, perfected my attitude and role as his sub, then everything would finally be ok.

While I was in the middle of it all I just kept trying harder to make it work.

The tricky thing for me is that by nature I like to help and support the people I care about and tend to see the best in people. My outlook on people is that one never knows what another is going through, so it's better to err on the side of generosity of spirit.

Having read all of your comments and thinking through all of this I can understand why my actions can be construed as going overboard. To be perfectly frank I'm terrible at setting boundaries and have a really hard time sticking up for myself when it comes to people I care about.

Another thing that has affected all of this is that I was diagnosed with Asperger's last month. I know it can be a catch-all diagnosis, but for me it is a spot on diagnosis. One of the biggest challenges I have in life is that people and their actions don't make a lot of sense to me. Hence asking for the perspective of others. I've been called naive and guileless because I start from the assumption that people will be honest and non-manipulative. Needless to say I am often taken advantage of.

What I'm starting to understand is just how much the Asperger's affects my life. On one hand it's nice to put a name to it all, but on the other hand I have absolutely no idea what to do about the diagnosis.

Another challenge is that because of being laid off last year I lost my health insurance and haven't been able to see my psychiatrist in more than a year. (I was diagnosed with Bipolar I many years ago. I am 100% medication compliant and am vigilant about getting help when I start to feel off. Before I lost my insurance we found a medication regime that compliments my own efforts to stay emotionally stable with the minimum amount of side effects. Even though I've been dealing with the job loss and all the financial issues related to that, my mood has been stable enough to return to school to train for a new profession.

I had felt for some time that I needed to develop better ways of interacting with people and the world because what I had been doing just wasn't working. Before I stopped seeing my Dr. we were going to add cognitive therapy to the mix so that I could learn and practice better coping and social-interaction skills.

Between school, my ex, and my poorly-paying but necessary part-time job I could feel myself starting to go under a bit and could see that the rapid-cycling, ups and downs, irritation and hypomania that in the past preceded a significant Bipolar crisis were starting to manifest. That's why I started to look for another way to connect with people and to ask for advice. I'm learning more and more that what may seem and be obvious to others absolutely allude me. So while I can't see my Dr. for now I decided that rather than just isolate and wallow I would reach out to others who also face physical and/or mental-health issues. To learn from the resources and people on this site to support myself in what I hope will be a positive journey as I gradually take the steps toward learning and practicing new life skills. Also if anything I share or inquire about might be helpful to others that would be really great too.

One positive aspect of having a name for my traits is that now can see the many ways Asperger's affects me, my actions, and world view. Being able to call a thing what it is is a relief because now I know that my frequent lack of comprehension isn't a sign that I'm defective, but it is on me to find different ways of interacting with people.

Thank you again for your thoughtful and thought-provoking feedback.

See, I think you are approaching this situation logically. It's understandable if you have Aspergers because maybe you see the facts of the situation and aren't accounting for the fact that people aren't always logical and are often irrational. Would it help you to know that this clearly isn't a rational decision on his part? There simply is no explaining it, because it's based on anything but logic.

I get what you're saying about "he's just not into you." Yet, my sense is that people are more nuanced than that. The ex is one of those people who says it's not what you say, it's what you do. So in strictly black-and-white terms, and based on his behavior alone, I would say that what he's shown me is that he doesn't respect me as a person and having me around strokes his ego. That's hard and painful to say, but definitely a possibility.

The thing though is that I know there have been people who have dropped out of my life who I would suspect would say I just wasn't into them or that I was self-centered or careless with them. For me, two things are at play: 1) I have a really hard time figuring out what I'm feeling or thinking about experiences and people, and 2) I get mentally, emotionally, and physically drained after a while when I'm around people a lot. I'm better with one-on-one, but being around groups of people as one is during work leaves me spent. For those two and other reasons I'm very jealous of my personal time and physical space, which has nothing to do with how much I like, love, or respect others.

But on my own I had begun to realize how frustrating it must be to others to interact with me when I seem so unreliable and difficult. As my ex and others have said to me, I baffle them. The reality, however, is the paradox that is my life: I can appear to be indifferent, discourteous, or self-centered to people I'm close to, but it's not because I'm not into them, it's just the opposite. I think about the people who I want to be closest to and care about very much. In plain terms, they mean the world to me and I want to get it right with them but when I'm drained I find it difficult to do much besides withdraw into my metaphorical cocoon, so that I can sort through my experiences and interactions with them and others. For example, I know people have been frustrated with me because I might make plans and then back out of what I had agreed to do. What can come off as me focusing strictly on me is really me trying to make sense of the world, how to fit into that world, in addition to trying to understand the people who are important to me. I've had people tell me that it's obvious that I don't suffer fools gladly. That is true, but not because I mean to be arrogant or dismissive to people who don't measure up. It's that I can't see the point of engaging with people who don't hold my interest. This has very little to do with that person, and mostly to do with me trying to reserve my mental and physical energies for the people and things that are the true foci of my thoughts and feelings.

What is helpful to me now is having a name for these characteristics and that in fact these aspects of my personality are two of the ways having Asperger's manifests with me. Before last month I didn't know these where classic signs of Asperger's and I didn't have the language to articulate what goes on with me internally, but instead felt frustrated with myself for being this way and frustrated with others for interpreting my actions so wrong in the very way that I interpret their actions so incorrectly. That's one of the reasons I sought help and wanted and want to find new ways to navigate through this world and my life. To my surprise I also ended up finding out just how very much I fit the classic profile of someone with Asperger's.

Yet even before I had a diagnosis I had the wherewithal to tell a new person in my life with whom I would like to be real friends and not just acquaintances that he may find me unreliable or preoccupied at times, but that isn't because I don't care but that I do get mentally and physically drained after a while, which leads me to retreat into myself and that these are aspects of my personality I'm working to improve and ask that he be patient with me. Telling him that really seems to have helped our interactions and hopefully will make it easier for us to be friends.

For all these reasons and others I have cut my ex slack and why I said in my initial post that I accept responsibility for my actions in all this. I do have much personal work to do to better understand and articulate what is going on with me without leaving others feeling frustrated and put off by me.

More important these are the reasons I worded my initial post the way I did. I truly don't understand why someone at his age who has had the life experiences that he has had would put himself back into the very type of vanilla scenario that caused him so much pain and self doubt before. Regardless of his thoughts and feelings toward me, it just seems sad to me that he thinks this vanilla incarnation of himself is the means through which he will achieve happiness long term. I also don't understand why he has decided to erase and ignore me. Although I do think Adam is on to something when he says the ex may feel shame and guilt about his kinks. He has, just as I have, become used to hiding our kinks and who we are at heart, and feel ambivalence about having desires and wants that don't make sense in the context of the wider world. I truly believe he's facing an internal struggle, and as Adam posited he feels and thinks that pushing me away is a way to deal with his own ambivalence (and shame) about what he really wants and needs. I also suspect that part of him is mad at me. I imagine it would be difficult to perceive the possibility of the kind of relationship he's always wished for and to see someone who could help him to achieve that dream but who frustrates and baffles him. I can certainly see why someone at this point in his life would want to have a relationship with someone much younger, who it takes no more effort to be with than to do what he would do anyway, i.e. go to work, and who may present a light and breezy relationship that is unambiguous and easy. I just wonder what price he is and will pay for denying who he is and why a mature person like him would do that.

Of course my thoughts about his actions could be completely wrong headed and it may simply be that he isn't that into me. I suspect, however, this situation is more nuanced.

Thank you all again for taking the time to reflect and comment on what I've written and asked. Your insights and comments and overall generosity of spirit in taking the time to answer my questions in such a ruminative way is forcing me to think deeply about all of this and to see the situation from other dispassionate vantage points!