Men Are in Trouble

This post is bound to ruffle a few feathers, so my apologies in advance, for said ruffling. Before you scream 'you must be one of these loser MRA types', understand that I have no such association with any group. Remember: this is just text, and you'll be okay. Breath. Also realize that I am no scholar and am only reporting what I see so frequently. Is it objective? I cannot say. But I will tell you what I see so often, and it's disturbing. But AGAIN: note that is just one person's subjective account of things. This will be a quick post, so if the claims herein are too sweeping I will elaborate if you ask. I can't get too complex with only so much characters and the dwindling attention span of the many.

In advance I will say I am mostly referring to males in America, but the sentiment extends elsewhere too certainly.

Yes, I realize there's always some alarmist article you'll find somewhere that says X thing is in a state of crisis. But hear me out here.

As a side note: If I were to shriek cries of 'misogyny! Misogyny!' society is already more predisposed to sympathize. Cries of 'misandry!' or even faint whispers of a male-centric issue however would be met with incredulity or eye-rolling.

Feminism, of which I have zero respect for quite honestly, will have you believe that men are beyond okay and in fact living off the fat of the land. When I have found quite the opposite to be true. I think men are in trouble, mentally speaking. And not even remotely 'privileged' as such, here in the ol' U S of A. Oh and cue the ' all feminism means is you like women being equal to men'. I don't buy it, but that's possibly a different debate for a different time (or now if you choose to take me to task on it). I would argue by its very nature it's an exclusivist viewpoint.

The only thing that I concur with feminism about is that masculinity can be 'toxic' (that overused word, yes). Masculinity so stereotypically is associated with rugged stoicism, domination, and other types of suppression of emotions. Thankfully, we've somewhat evolved beyond the Cro-Magnon caricature of males to more 'feminized'/nurturing traits. And that's good; feminism’s maybe partly to thank for it. But we've still got miles to go.

Is there a time and place for masculinity? Sure, maybe. But men are suffering gravely from these traditionalist constructs of masculinity. Sure, yes, in the same way that women suffer from harmful expectations of femininity. It cuts both ways. I am not trying to create a false dichotomy here. We are ALL hurting. But I'm going to piss off a lot of people here however- and the point is not to polarize I will let you know -, but I think males are arguably more in trouble.

The statistics hold, if they are indeed to be trusted, that men are four times more likely to commit suicide. Women, however, are more likely to have psychological problems. But I would theorize men are less likely to report their psychological problems out of fear of weakness, or either their mental illness goes undetected from having to keep up such a suffocating front, OR society simply doesn't recognize mental illness as much in the case of men because it may be more construed with a deficiency in character. I highly question the statistics.

It's no secret women are able to be more vulnerable, openly express their emotions moreso than men. Women typically receive more support too. Women typically have more support from both men and women alike. Women are also more likely to prioritize their needs more than a man, and of course men - the majority - will acquiesce because of silly, outmoded, chivalrous nonsense. Because of their competitive nature, men tend to turn on men or be less inclined to help. Sadly. Thankfully I've never directly experienced (not much anyway) more stereotyped versions of men like that of what I mention, but I've witnessed it so often elsewhere. Right now, if I were go to YouTube and look at the comments for male figures there's usually a disproportionately negative amount of comments versus the praiseful comments heaped upon female YouTubers. Because the misandry is so rampant on the likes of YouTube, it does indeed do a number on me, psychologically.

One gets the impression that women are more liked, period. But I'm not here to point that out. I'm here to highlight why men are quite conceivably in such treacherous waters psychologically speaking.

Is it any wonder, then, that most of school shooters are male? Extreme acts like this are born out of a crisis in masculinity. Where manhood is measured in strength, where there is no way to be vulnerable without being emasculated, where manliness is about having power over others. And there’s nowhere to turn but anger or types of bullying.

Males need emotional support now more than ever. Being male you’re pretty much doomed to feel some form of deep resentment because you’ve got people shaming you at every which way for something. Ahh, the new and wonderful proliferation of the word 'creep' reigns supreme now. Though the wording here is extreme, men are constant victims of a kind of sexual trauma. Sexually traumatized and not actually abused in the traditional sense. You’re bombarded with degrading terms with the intent of emasculating: ‘pussy’, ‘*****’ etc. This is the common lexicon even among more adult types. You’re shamed if you express sexual desire. You’re shamed if you don’t. Men get attacked for their sexual predilection (or lack of) no matter what. Eventually.

Alright, so before the inevitable comments of 'you're seeing what you want to see. Confirmation bias, man.' etc. etc. realize that I'm not stating any of this as fact. I'm asserting, but not saying this is without a doubt...the truth. Ah, and for those who invariably want to go for the jugular by claiming this is some deep-seated Oedipal issue at play here, or due to being scorned or jilted by the opposite sex blah blah blah...I'll just state for the record, I've had tremendously positive relationships with women. So rule that out. Realize that questioning the well-being of males does not automatically render you a tyrant.

Does even a shred of this strike a chord with anyone? Is anyone else as deeply disturbed by all of this as me?

Am I intentionally trying to be divisive? Nope. By making this issue gendered as opposed to worrying about mental health for all, am I doing a disservice? I'd say no, because certain differences in genders obviously must be acknowledged, because they exist. It just so happens a gender, I believe, incurs more psychological grief that is being largely ignored..in many respects I'd say.

I agree we do not always give men enough support but disagree that women are more likely to prioritize their needs. I have seen both genders sacrifice for others but usually in different ways. My father worked really hard to give his family the resources we needed to get ahead. He did many jobs he didn't enjoy. Of course, whenever he could--he would find jobs he loved and enjoyed but when they were unavailable, he perservered. I feel like I really got lost (didn't take anytime to self reflect and dream about what I wanted or needed) being a wife and mother. Everything was about creating an environment to help my children thrive and my husband's career and dreams where always the priority. Of course, I allowed this to happen. Perhaps I was subconciously programmed to be like this (cultural messages) and didn't examine my life the way I needed to until I had a major mental crisis.

Both sexes need to do more self reflection. There are some people (both male and female) who need to be more understanding about what the other sex is going through. This is a good discussion.

So first off, we're not a debate site to discuss "issues of the day." We're a mental health support site, offering emotional support to those (who self-identify as any gender) who need it. So although you say you're not trying to be divisive, I think you could've put the issue more personally (and without even bringing up feminism or women) as, "As a male in America, I'm having trouble coping and being able to express my emotional and psychological needs, and I suspect many, many other men feel the same way."

Frankly, I see no problem with men expressing the full range of emotions in society. However, I realize that I also live among fairly enlightened people, friends, family, etc, so most of the time, it is accepted and acceptable. But I can see that for many men, it's still not accepted or acceptable, and agree, for many, it can be a real problem.

Does it explain away violent behavior that occurs mostly in men? No, of course not. You can go back in history and find this behavior among men for eons, where the historical record of violence in women is much, much smaller.

So I would turn the question back to you -- how is this impacting your life? How has this stopped or helped you in life? What specific challenges are you facing that you'd like the community's support with?

I have to admit, I've thought some of the same things. What I really relate to is this general, vague, unspecific feeling that men as a category these days are just "not liked." And basically, kind of unwanted. Feels like there is enormous pressure for men to be successful and really no specialized support resources. The support resources that do exist for people in general tend to be under-utilized by men and often unsympathetic to the feelings of men. For a large portion of men, it is extremely hard to seek support or tolerate emotional vulnerability and sadly even in this day and age that generally is not taken very seriously at all. A lot of men are falling through the cracks because they just are not finding the emotional resources to develop into well-rounded people.

I mostly try not to think about it because it actually makes me feel really awful. I try to ignore thoughts of how I will be treated based on being male, however a lot of times you can just feel it in the way people treat you from square one, and it really sucks.

I think some of it has to do with the growth of social media, the voice of our culture is just more predominately female these days. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, I just hate to see that being used as a platform for bashing men rather than for something positive.

But we live in a weird world these days. Just gotta stay strong and keep pushing through it.

Much progress has been made though. My father was born in 1920 and was seemingly made of hard and cold steel. Fast forward to male members of my family now and they are unabashedly capable of much more than steel. In general, I believe most men are more informed, aware, sophisticated, advanced, developed, open-minded, educated, knowledgeable and wiser than their predecessors. Don't misunderstand, there are still stragglers and those who embrace a caveman mentality and that will always be the case. A person has to have acceptance and good judgement to embrace and respect personal growth and of course the wherewithal to achieve it.

Well this proves I should take my posts a peg longer with preemptive details, even more than I do already.

This is hardly an "issue of the day".

Well there you go. Step outside your enlightened group of friends, family, etc. Explore. See what you find.

This is very much a mental health issue as I no doubt made clear in the post. Alright, maybe the use of the word feminism could trigger a reaction, but a reasonable-minded person would not get wildly worked up over the use of it in a slightly less than glorifying context; and the intent was certainly not to divide. Talking about the opposite gender with respect to the other is a given to describe how these issues are very much gender-based (and this is in a Gender forum no less). If this post is indeed divisive, I can only say sorry and that's about it. If you must, close the thread and never let it see the light of day or move it elsewhere. Do what you must. If it remains, I'll field whatever ire comes my way. I truly don't care.

Does what explain away the violent behavior that occurs mostly in men? The repression of emotions? I did not state that for that reason it automatically accounts for all violent behavior. But it certainly doesn't help. And I never denied this behavior among men going back eons. There were many oppressors with the need to dominate; we were more barbaric in general in times before us quite obviously. We've evolved however, and arguably, here in the United States, we might consider women the more evolved/more enlightened gender (it's just that they're not doing a whole hell of a lot to help in shattering destructive expectations of masculinity. And that's where my finger-wagging starts.). Look, if I didn't state it directly, I will state it now: men and women, with their furthering of 'toxic' (despise that word) gender roles, are both at fault.

Are you serious here, DocJohn, or are you being obtuse? I'm not sure how much you combed through my post or how much you read in its entirety, which I cannot blame you for; I probably wouldn't read my posts in their entirety given their length. I've explained to you how this been a hindrance in life. Let's start with the aforementioned: not being able to express emotions as openly. Expected to 'tough it out' and the like. Thankfully, I've had no machismo-spouting father, but encountering the need to wall off one's emotions is something many males will encounter in life. Maybe not specifically you, DocJohn. But I've witnessed males being excoriated left and right for even so much as expressing perceived weakness: being unmercifully called a '*****', '*****', etc. -- all the emasculating terms I already pointed out: and these are employed by both females and males alike as shaming tactics. Just being a bystander to this, the need to be less emotional gets stamped shut into you as a male; not as a given, but it certainly has trickled down to me and others I know. That affects me plenty. I've incurred plenty of psychological harm from being privy to it or bearing witness to it, and your incredulity here is almost kind of invalidating--maybe that wasn't the intent; I cannot say.

The fact that much of this is (normally) unable to be expressed without shrieks of misogyny is also quite daunting.

As others have mentioned you feel a sort of shame attached to being male. Your sex drive is, as again, I already said, to be wielded as a terrible weapon. I certainly feel the effects from that. And not being sexual enough nets one difficulty. I've felt plenty of pressure for not explicitly displaying interest in females. Sure sure, yes yes, of course females may experience this in varying degrees. But doubly so for men. Someone might say "women experience that too!" Okay. Fine. And that's terrible. But I'm stressing the gravity even more for more habitual recipients.

It hasn't stopped life, but it's made it considerably more daunting. It's made therapy harder. But this is also not exclusively how it directly relates to me. This is just a broad topic to be discussed, and surely that is allowed. I've seen plenty of threads where dissenting opinions appear.

I can almost guarantee that if this were a female decrying or calling into question the same things/broadcasting their opinion on it, they would not be subjected to nearly the same scrutiny. It's important to bring up double-standards, so we can get on the path to leveling the playing fields more: if you're such a believer in a thing. I think we've made great strides toward equalizing the sexes, despite our inherent differences, but feminism with its supremacy - co-opted as a movement that I truly do think initially had the intention of equalizing the sexes (I'll get a lot of **** for this, but that's okay with me. Again: if that inadvertently stirs the pot, okay, then crucify me.) has run amok and taken us tremendous steps backwards. That's why it bears mentioning. It's an integral component in all of this. It's an incredibly popular - albeit gaining a backlash slowly but surely - field of thought that many assign a great deal of importance to and it is continuing the divide among the sexes.

I agree much progress has been made. But I'm not sure I can agree when you say the word most. While I've met plenty of non-stereotypical Cro-Magnon 'alpha', 'beta' - espousing males, I've seen a resurgence in the stereotypical. The competitive drive and obsession with hierarchical status is still very much alive frequently (practically everywhere I go).

Absolutely. And from my subjective view, it's still pretty prevalent.

Of course. But I ask, hypothetically, is it sexist to encourage one sex to do more 'reflecting' than the other?

This is not something one "sex" needs to do more than the other sex. The world would be a better place if we would all examine our lives and challenge ourselves to become our best selves. That would include becoming comfortable with our emotional and psychological selves. For some, religion and/or philosophy may teach us about some of these things. Forgiveness and gratitude is good for all or us, especially the person who adopts these points of view (of course it is not easy when you have been dealt a "bad hand" in this life.) IMO empathy and acceptance of people who have different POVs (including the other sex no matter how they identify themselves) is essential to having the kind of society and country where people are able to pursue their dreams. Self reflection starts with myself. Once I understand and am comfortable with myself, that makes me better at listening to and understanding others, starting with my husband and children. Sometimes I have been on autopilot and when I am like that I have subconsconscously or maybe because of my genetics/upbringing acted just like my mother or father. Some of the behaviors helped me, others hindered me. Some of what they taught me was to be a certain way because of my sex. With self reflection, we can decide which values we want to continue and pass down to our children. It is not easy to change the things that have been programmed into us that are not helpful to our pursuit of happiness. ALL sexes need to be self reflective and understanding of the plight of others. Life is not always easy not matter who you are in this world.

Is there any chance all the media messages are making you feel like men are not being supported? I think this is why Doc John does not want us to discuss "issues of the day" (politics) on this forum. Watching (including Youtube) too much news is bad for our mental health from my POV. Making the world a better place starts at home/ with each person--we can't fix the entire world and maybe not everyone wants to be like us anyways.....

I think trump, Jordan Peterson and company are the last throes of the patriarchy. It's the thesis, feminism the antithesis, and there will be a synthesis between the two. The whole #metoo movement was a jab at the patriarchy mostly, and for good reason. The pendulum is swinging hard. It disheartens me to see the leading north American scholar is Jordan Peterson who thinks birthcontrol is ruining western civilization, who doesn't understand Jung or Nietzsche very well, but has a scholarly trumpian view that's buttoned up and white chokered a thing. Maleness as a power structure, along with whiteness as a power structure need to go for progress. Our country was founded on universal principles that kicked a king out, meaning hereditary meant nothing.

Kate Mann wrote a great work called Down Girl The Logic of Misogyny, that shows the system of how mean treat women toxically, treat the ones that obey nicely, but the great ones who don't fit their wanted stereotype like Hillary Clinton, they shame, her, demean her, put her through the system.

In a just world, men would have always been conscientious enough to notrepress people of women and people of color, but hopefully history is progressive, and this "woke" movement will swing and crush the white male patrirchy for something more inclusive. In my field, philosophy, i see more and more women who shed new light on topics. Men try to essentialize women, like jordan peterson, and that already tries to group them as not diverse and as a type. He needs to go.