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Default Mar 21, 2019 at 11:54 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by ennie View Post
A couple of other things I noticed are (and oh, had I KNOWN before! But better late than never, and I hope they will help someone avoid the danger):

-Exaggerated expressions. If they sound too good to be true and are inconsistent with her actions.

-"The look." Like having a grin on her face at an inappropriate time. She looks at you as if you are being ridiculous or as if she is enjoying seeing you aggravated.

And if she acts "concerned", but it doesn't feel sincere, try looking away for a while or excuse yourself briefly. She will either have an expression of hatred on her face, or a grin from a sadistic pleasure, as soon as she thinks you are not looking (Hmmm, what happened to that look of concern she just had?)
Those are great examples, ennie. I've experienced these first-hand from both men and women narcissists as friends and boyfriends.
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Default Mar 21, 2019 at 01:36 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by StreetcarBlanche View Post

1. name calling
Example: “You idiot, now you have made me angry!”
My abuser has never been explicit like this so I am not sure how to respond to something like this. She manipulates in subtle and passive-aggressive ways.
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Default Mar 21, 2019 at 01:59 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by ennie View Post
My abuser has never been explicit like this so I am not sure how to respond to something like this. She manipulates in subtle and passive-aggressive ways.
Can you think of any examples off-hand?

When I told the Narc that I liked the radio station we were listening to in his car, he immediately used two types of verbal abuse, "discounting," and "undermining."

Here's what he said to me:

Discounting - the attempt to deny the victim the rights to his/her feelings

"You know Blanche, [name of radio station] is so yesterday b/c their music is so faux-hipster that no one with great musical taste listens to it really. It's perfect for [this city] b/c no one here is really that knowledgeable about what makes good music."

Undermining - attempt to make me question the validity of my own opinion; basically an attempt to put me down for my valid opinion.

"I know [so and so] from [the name of the radio station] and it really isn't that up to date on the type of music it plays. It's really gone downhill as far as quality. I can't believe you like that radio station. I thought you had better taste in music than that."

I didn't know how to respond at the time. I felt bad for liking that radio station's music and being a fan of it for as long as I have. So, I said nothing. But why should i feel bad, just because he told me to? That's why I think he was Narc'ing out on me in the car. Who tells someone that their choice of radio station is wrong, just because THEY don't like that radio station. I was such a wimp, that I didn't even defend liking the radio station to him. I wish I had.
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Default Mar 21, 2019 at 04:01 PM
  #24
Yes, my mother and ex-husband. Actually, narccissists hate themselves...and take it out on others. They are emotional vampires, and continually need their "fix"---that is you responding to their outrageous behavior. Don't engage.
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Default Mar 21, 2019 at 04:47 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by nicoleflynn View Post
Yes, my mother and ex-husband. Actually, narccissists hate themselves...and take it out on others. They are emotional vampires, and continually need their "fix"---that is you responding to their outrageous behavior. Don't engage.
Sorry to hear that, nicoleflynn. Yes, I agree with you that narcissists are emotional vampires that continually need their "fix" from people they view as their "sources."

It's hard not to engage once they hook you. Getting unhooked from a narcissist is never easy.
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Default Mar 21, 2019 at 08:24 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by StreetcarBlanche View Post
Can you think of any examples off-hand?
I don't know which category this fits into, but she was always trying to sabotage my happiness. I had a family member I had forgiven and reconciled with, and she saw that I was getting along with him at the family gathering (yes, I am unfortunately related to this person). She acted like she was happy for me, as everyone else was.

And then she texted me later reminding me of all the nasty things he said to me in the past, trying to drag me down.

"Remember when...."

I ended up not responding to her texts. I know what you mean by not knowing how to respond, because narcissists engage in strange behaviors that a normal person wouldn't. And you still try to give that person the benefit of doubt, making all kinds of excuses for her like, "Maybe she has a mental illness and she's not herself today," etc.
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Default Mar 21, 2019 at 08:33 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by StreetcarBlanche View Post

Getting unhooked from a narcissist is never easy.
Yes, this is the very reason I had to write to "Ask the Therapist" on PC.
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Default Mar 21, 2019 at 09:33 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by ennie View Post
I don't know which category this fits into, but she was always trying to sabotage my happiness. I had a family member I had forgiven and reconciled with, and she saw that I was getting along with him at the family gathering (yes, I am unfortunately related to this person). She acted like she was happy for me, as everyone else was.

And then she texted me later reminding me of all the nasty things he said to me in the past, trying to drag me down.

"Remember when...."

I ended up not responding to her texts. I know what you mean by not knowing how to respond, because narcissists engage in strange behaviors that a normal person wouldn't. And you still try to give that person the benefit of doubt, making all kinds of excuses for her like, "Maybe she has a mental illness and she's not herself today," etc.
So you're related to your Narcissist? Or was in a relationship with her? So, she tried to "discount" your reconciliation with your brother, by later texting you reminders of the strained relationship you had with him in the past? Wow, that is very nasty and mean for her to do that to you. Not supportive of you at all.

I'm estranged from my brother (for good reason) and have no intention of ever reconciling with him (for good reason). But I empathize with how awkward and unsupportive that woman made you feel b/c I've been in your shoes.
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Default Mar 21, 2019 at 09:58 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by StreetcarBlanche View Post
So you're related to your Narcissist? Or was in a relationship with her? .
Related to her on my father's side of the family so I didn't grow up with her under the same roof.

Thank you for helping me see that her action was a form of discount.
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Default Mar 21, 2019 at 10:19 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by ennie View Post
Related to her on my father's side of the family so I didn't grow up with her under the same roof.

Thank you for helping me see that her action was a form of discount.
Wow, sorry to hear that. My sister and brother are both manipulative (the family therapist called their behavior 'triangulation' during one session we all had to attend after our father's death, b/c our mother is mentally ill and was spending his insurance money willy nilly and acting crazy, so we did family therapy for 6 weeks before they all quit when the family therapist called out their manipulative behavior).

I hope you aren't in contact with her anymore, this family member?

i am reading up a lot on emotional unavailability and narcissism. I found this list of 15 types of verbal abuse on psychology today's website:

15 Common Forms of Verbal Abuse in Relationships | Psychology Today
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Default Mar 21, 2019 at 10:23 PM
  #31
My family is a narcissist family tree for sure. I'm the codependent scapegoat in my family system. I am reading a book right now about narcissist mothers, which I think my mother could be (my father was emotionally neglectful to all 3 of his children and to his wife).

So, it's no surprise that my two siblings and mother communicate with each other, and I hear everything third-hand. They never include me in the family goings-on and then act offended when I tell them keeping secrets from me hurts my feelings. Very toxic family system I live in.

The Narcissistic Family Tree | Psychology Today
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Default Mar 21, 2019 at 10:50 PM
  #32
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I didn't know how to respond at the time. I felt bad for liking that radio station's music and being a fan of it for as long as I have. So, I said nothing. But why should i feel bad, just because he told me to? That's why I think he was Narc'ing out on me in the car. Who tells someone that their choice of radio station is wrong, just because THEY don't like that radio station. I was such a wimp, that I didn't even defend liking the radio station to him. I wish I had.
Honestly, don't blame yourself for not having a quick response to this person. A NICE person would never say something like that, it's bad manners and disrespectful. You just got caught off guard because it's nothing you would ever think to say. Hey, if you like a radio station you have a right to like it, nothing to be shamed for or feel shame about. You know that now right?
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Default Mar 21, 2019 at 10:55 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Open Eyes View Post
Honestly, don't blame yourself for not having a quick response to this person. A NICE person would never say something like that, it's bad manners and disrespectful. You just got caught off guard because it's nothing you would ever think to say. Hey, if you like a radio station you have a right to like it, nothing to be shamed for or feel shame about. You know that now right?
Thanks OpenEyes. I know that I have a right to like that radio station, but why did i freeze up the way i did, and not defend myself or say anything? I think I must be programmed to be quiet which must mean i have low self esteem.

It was definitely rude for him to tell me that i was wrong to like that radio station because he didn't like it. I definitely was caught off guard because normal people don't speak that way to each other. Maybe tease each other with "oh you like THAT station" but in a good natured way. This guy, didn't do that. He was very haughty, and very arrogant about it. i'm mad that I was so silent.
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Default Mar 22, 2019 at 12:05 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by StreetcarBlanche View Post
I hope you aren't in contact with her anymore, this family member?

15 Common Forms of Verbal Abuse in Relationships | Psychology Today
I still have to bump into her occasionally at family functions. She's also local, and because I was naive enough to allow her to cross boundaries and encroach onto my contacts and friend-poach, we now have several mutual people in our lives.

She tries to find opportunities to isolate me whenever she sees me.

I catch her starring at me when I'm talking to someone else at an event, and as soon as that person leaves, she comes approaching me. Last time, I excused myself to go to the bathroom and found her standing in the hallway upon coming out. I walked past her really fast pretending not to see her, and immediately sat next to someone so she cannot isolate me. She soon came back into the party room and gave me the angry stare.

Like the therapist said,

"If, in fact, you have to interact with her or be around her, you need to develop some emotional shields so she can’t get to you."
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Default Mar 22, 2019 at 12:15 PM
  #35
I have questioned myself that way too. I have actually been going through a lot and for a while now with my toxic older sister who abuses her power over my elderly parents. She has gaslighted, and lied and smeared and has blown up in rages at me, doesn't even care if other people see her do this. My father passed away just a couple of months ago and I went to visit him to have time to say goodbye and she made it a point to invade that visit. And when she did that I knew that she was just waiting for me to say something so she could perform drama in front of the caregiver that was sitting there. She made it a point to plan his service and it really wasn't about him IMHO, instead it was HER service. I did not go to HER service. Now my mother is dying and she hovers over that too and I went once to hospice to visit my mother who never opened her eyes or responded to me. Her husband was there and he is very welcoming so I gave him a hug and him and my husband stood there and talked while I sat next to my mother. I actually felt a bit safer having them there as a kind of shield. Yet, she just had to make it a point to step in and pull her husband away. When these articles describe the body language and the facial expressions, I know those well and I can picture her expressing these negative body languages.

I have ptsd or what is now called complex ptsd so her behaviors can really trigger me. I manage to remain calm when she behaves badly, even has raged at me. Yet, afterwards I end up really struggling. She is four years older than me, and she was bossy and controlling with me when I was really little, so when I get triggered I end up experiencing that young child part of me. I never consciously choose this, instead it's intrusive and just takes over.

With toxic individuals the one goal with them is "control". They will lie and smear and rage and stalk and gossip and hover and play the martar or victim whatever needed as for them it's all about CONTROL. Their "supply" is all about how they feel when they gain control over others and take others down or prove themselves superior. They like the drama to revolve around "them". They like to take the position of something is good or right or valueable ONLY if they think it is. They like to be the one that shines the most and collect the most likes, and have the most facebook friends and the biggest house or the most of whatever.

The guy you described experiencing in your other thread was a guy that considered his tastes and likes and dislikes to be more important, better, and if anyone fails to have HIS tastes they are stupid or less than in some way. He even made it a point to say to you "well, your not that pretty, but I like you anyway". Now WHO says that? All that really meant is "I don't think you are all that great but you can be added to my list of people that thinks I am great and worthy of their worship". Basically, all you are is an extra or a guest when it comes to their "stage of drama". You are basically just an assessory. You are simply a guest in their drama world, another fan in THEIR club and if you can't play nice with them and accept that, they proceed to smear you and see you as a threat.

These individuals like codependents because codependents are forgiving and nice and don't mind giving in and don't need to have all the control or stand out the way the toxic person does. Actually, they like having "dependents" because that can give them the sense of power they like. This is why a lot of these individuals position themselves in fields where they can have access to people with "needs". Their underlying need is always "power and control". Often this is something they are mentored to be or they are making up for the lack of control or power they experienced in their childhood or home.

Maybe you don't really "need" to have that quick answer when you are taken back by a person that says things to you that somehow put you down as you described. I know that can be hard because it's normal to want to defend ourselves. It's also normal to experience feelings of being insecure or inadequate if we don't have that quick comeback. And in all honesty? Toxic people are not interested in LISTENING. You can do a test where they will talk to you for a long time as long as the conversation is all about THEM, and then when YOU need to talk they suddenly don't have TIME to sit and listen to you. OR, their input is to take over and tell you all the things you are doing that's wrong, they like THAT kind of power, they like to be in the "drivers" seat. A red flag that you noticed was how this guy was only interested in having his favorite radio station be THE best radio station. He did not care about hurting YOUR feelings, instead all he cared about was his choice was the right choice. Toxic people like to embrace their truth as being the only truth. My older sister has made every effort to BLOCK me from getting any information from anyone EXCEPT HER. I should have noticed these red flags about her, I would have seen all this coming, but I tend to be an agreeable person in a lot of respects so I missed the red flags, but looking back and with learning what to look for, I can see them now.

When my phone rings and I see her name, I don't want to talk to her. I don't want to hear her condescending voice and the way she coats all the conversation with her drama because she NEVER really tells me the truth. She has lied to me SO MANY times now and she has practiced with holding with me so many times that I genuinely don't want to talk to her at all.

The hardest day for me was the day my father died. The phone kept ringing and I saw her name and I had already had too many sour experiences with her on the phone and when she made it a point to invade my last visit with him that I sat here and decided not to pick up. I sat here not picking up, the phone kept ringing and then she called my husband and he called and told me. I just sat here thinking about how I loved my father but I did not want to end up being traumatized by however she would need to control those last moments of his life. It's a horrible feeling to experience knowing someone you love is passing away and not feeling SAFE to go and be there for that person. It's not anything I ever imagined facing or experiencing. Her fate was being alone with that because of how many times she engaged me in so many toxic ways when it came to me feeling safe to be with my parents. I had been raged at, lied to, talked down to, smeared and isolated where the only way I could get any information about my parents was to HAVE to talk to her, that I sat here and said to myself, I don't want to expose myself and risk being traumatized yet again.

My mother is dying and the call came again, my husband KNOWS and has witnessed her rage and lie and create drama so much now and how it affects me that he picked up. She refused to tell him anything. His answer was that I was not home and he would let me know when he could talk to me. I had to wait a few hours before finally getting mentally prepared to talk to her. It's very hard when someone insists on withholding and uses someone you love and care about so much to control like that. To me, it is the lowest of low, it's evil and disgusting. No matter how you respond, you are playing THEIR GAME when someone is toxic. There is nothing healthy in the picture no matter how you respond.

My mother is laying in a bed and doesn't open her eyes and barely talks and my sister is hovering over her. I just want to experience time with my mother without this controlling negative presence hovering around me and the truth is I am not even over what I just experienced with my father and all the dysfunction that revolved around his passing and even his service that really wasn't his service but HERS that I stayed away from, that was a difficult choice too. My husband feeling bad for me calls her and all he wanted was to help me have my own time to visit with my mother, to just say my goodbyes alone and the reaction he got was a smearing of me and absolutely not. A healthy person would have no problem respecting that, but I am not dealing with a healthy person. This label "narcissist"? I am not really comfortable assigning that label, even though I can see a lot of the things on the list that she practices. All I can say is it's disordered and toxic and I really don't care to expose myself to it. Sigh...people say to ignore her, don't give her power just go and pretend she isn't there, she wants you to suffer and feel bad, don't let her rent space in your head, she wants you to do that. None of that input helps me. None of that stops me from feeling nauseous and disgusted and deeply disappointed or helps me "JUST" find it in me to go and visit my mother even though I know this toxic presence will be there hovering and there is always this negative energy in this presence just looking for something she can grab onto that she can use to feed off of. If someone puts a lot of effort into smearing you and lying to you and raging at you and wants you to react so they can rage at you or add it to their private stash to use against you. It can get to anyone, especially if you can't even imaging doing anything like that to another person. Some people CAN ignore that and can even laugh at it too. A kind hearted sensitive person can't do that, it's just not in their nature. I am a listener, I do care and I probably care too much for my own good, yet I prefer to plant positive seeds in another person in hopes that person can use that for their own personal growth. I have witnessed and experienced a lot of bad things in my life, I always tried to use these experiences to helping others and to be positives. I don't want to engage in the "hurting" games toxic people play so with that, I may not have an instant comeback when someone says something to solicit making someone feel bad about themselves. I don't want to be around that kind of person either.
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Default Mar 22, 2019 at 12:37 PM
  #36
My husband has seen me deal with so many toxic behaviors when it comes to my sister, he has seen her rage at me and smear me. He gets frustrated by how hurtful she can be towards me. I am only human, it hurts.

So a friend of his that he has talked to sharing his frustration sent him this message and it was helpful so I will share it with you too.

Quote:
When a toxic person can
no longer control you, they will
try to control how others
see you.

The misinformation will feel
unfair, but stay above it, trusting
that other people will eventually
see the truth, just like
you did.
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Default Mar 22, 2019 at 01:53 PM
  #37
I just wanted to say that when it came to the day my dad passed away, it was only a couple days after I had made an attempt to visit him where my sister made it a point to invade that time I was having with him. And I was not ready to talk to her again, did not know my father was in the process of dying. Even if I had made an attempt to rush there once I did find out, I would not have made it in time and would have walked into all my sister's reactions and him just laying there already passed. That could have really traumatized me even more. When my husband's mother passed away, it was very different, no one was there, she passed suddenly, but we rushed to the hospital to all be together. There was never any discomfort about not feeling safe to do so.
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Default Mar 22, 2019 at 02:03 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by ennie View Post
I still have to bump into her occasionally at family functions. She's also local, and because I was naive enough to allow her to cross boundaries and encroach onto my contacts and friend-poach, we now have several mutual people in our lives.

She tries to find opportunities to isolate me whenever she sees me.

I catch her starring at me when I'm talking to someone else at an event, and as soon as that person leaves, she comes approaching me. Last time, I excused myself to go to the bathroom and found her standing in the hallway upon coming out. I walked past her really fast pretending not to see her, and immediately sat next to someone so she cannot isolate me. She soon came back into the party room and gave me the angry stare.

Like the therapist said,

"If, in fact, you have to interact with her or be around her, you need to develop some emotional shields so she can’t get to you."
So, is she your cousin then? I have a cousin like the cousin you describe. Well, actually two cousins who are brothers. One read my father's favorite poem at my father's wake, after I accidentally trusted him with the information that my plan was to read my father's favorite poem at my father's wake -- so my cousin did it impromptly, and everyone talked about how wonderful it was for months after that. I was livid, betrayed. I couldn't BELIEVE he'd do that to me. His brother, my other cousin and are friends on social media and whenever I try to initiate getting together with him and his family he always lies to me with the "I'm too busy with work" excuse, yet is on FB all the time. We have distant relatives in common on FB and I have no idea what/if he says anything negative about me to these people whom I've yet to meet (bc they live abroad in other countries).

How has your cousin friend-poached or encroached on your FB contacts? Did she just add FB friends after you added her?
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Default Mar 22, 2019 at 02:06 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Open Eyes View Post
My husband has seen me deal with so many toxic behaviors when it comes to my sister, he has seen her rage at me and smear me. He gets frustrated by how hurtful she can be towards me. I am only human, it hurts.

So a friend of his that he has talked to sharing his frustration sent him this message and it was helpful so I will share it with you too.
Quote:
When a toxic person can
no longer control you, they will
try to control how others
see you.

The misinformation will feel
unfair, but stay above it, trusting
that other people will eventually
see the truth, just like
you did.
This has been happening to me for a few years now, as I try to get involved in several creative communities again but am blackballed b/c of a few ex-friends who were manipulative and toxic to my well-being. They just trash talk me to their friends whom I've contacted to try to get involved in those creative communities, and their friends won't give me a chance to join their creative groups which is really unfortunate.

I could move, but why should I have to? That means the manipulative person then wins. And I deserve to stay where I currently live and be happy. I just have to find people who don't know the same people I do, and try to get involved with their creative groups.
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Default Mar 22, 2019 at 02:15 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Open Eyes View Post
I just wanted to say that when it came to the day my dad passed away, it was only a couple days after I had made an attempt to visit him where my sister made it a point to invade that time I was having with him.

And I was not ready to talk to her again, did not know my father was in the process of dying. Even if I had made an attempt to rush there once I did find out, I would not have made it in time and would have walked into all my sister's reactions and him just laying there already passed. That could have really traumatized me even more.

When my husband's mother passed away, it was very different, no one was there, she passed suddenly, but we rushed to the hospital to all be together. There was never any discomfort about not feeling safe to do so.
I know how you feel. When my father passed away, we were all in the room watching him take his last breaths. But then after he died, my two siblings ran to the downstairs, and my mother ran into her room, leaving me with the hospice care worker who'd I had shoved minutes before, when he tried to prevent me from getting into my father's bedroom to see that he had minutes left (I don't know why the hospice worker acted this way but we got into quite a physical altercation and I'm a petite woman and he was a tall black guy).

I had to call the mortician phone number to have my dad's body picked up, and I had to call the hospice care company and file a formal complaint (turns out, nothing happened to this ahole, he wasn't cited or anything for trying to prevent family members from seeing my dad before he died, which is precisely what he was trying to do b/c he's an ahole).

So, while my cowardly family members ran and hid, Blanche, 21 years old at the time, had to handle the ugly, real side of death and watch my father's dead body be carried out of our house on a stretcher and everything.

I am reading a really helpful book now about growing up in a narcissistic family and the types of coping skills that develop in children as a result, and it's really helping me to identify why I attract narcissists, and techniques I can try to use to avoid falling into narcissists' traps as their friend and how to avoid dating them.

That guy I posted about, for sure, has narcissist traits and I live by labels, so it's helpful for me to use labels. I can see now, he was giving me attention NOT affection, and I misinterpreted his attention (which was fake) as affection b/c of my childhood patterns based on emotionally neglectful parents, triangulation and the coping mechanisms and dysfunctional beliefs I developed (people only like me if i do something for them/help them, is one dysfunctional belief, i.e. subjugation which is about putting yourself and your needs aside so you can make the other person feel superior to you).
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