Reactive Abuse

I don't understand. Someone made mention of this and I really believe this explains my relationship to a T.. but it suggests it's connected to narcissistic personality disorder. As much as I've been able to check off all boxes for RA, I don't believe my partner has NPD.

If this were the case, what else could I be dealing with? Our counselor "fired" us and mentioned she felt he was the problem in our relationship and needed further individual counseling to work on his emotional intelligence.

What causes someone to have low EQ? I don't want to flood this thread with many examples.. I'm just trying to understand him. We have 2 very young children.

I think low EQ may be be partly learned and partly innate or caused by early parenting. I don't know the specifics of your case, but with my older sister, it really bothered me when we were little that she had no empathy for other kids, especally ones younger than her. Once a boy younger than her fell off his bike and started crying. My sister pointed her finger and said. "Ha ha ha!" to mock him for crying. I don't know if it qualifies as low EQ because she knew enough to not do that when adults were watching. I only suspected low EQ on our 30s when her temper tantrums increased to about 15 times a day, screaming over stubbing a toe, having to make her own food or coffee, and other every day things. I see low EQ as having the self control and self awareness of a toddler. People with low EQ also seem to project their feelings on others rather than recognize they are the angry/insecure/envius one.

The thing that is alarming is that you have young kids. I know that my stepfather's low EQ definitely made my sister worse. Once he was in our lives, my sister went from child bully to someone really violent and cruel. This is the sort of thing kids mimic from adults because they view parent behavior as an example of what is normal. I know that as a kid, I copied my sister's narcissistic remarks about other people because I mistook what she said for humor. The impact on your kids would probably be a good thing to bring up with a therapist.

I don't know. I grew up with a very emotionally detached mother (NDP?) and a mentally ill father who was an alcoholic for the first 7 years of my life. I find I'm highly sensitive to people's feelings and very empathetic. I'm often alerting my partner about how his actions are affecting others because he's completely oblivious. He grew up with nice parents. They were both scout leaders and very involved in their children's lives. You'd think I'd have a much lower EQ level than he.

That is a mystery. My paternal grandparents were really nice people, but my father is awful. My stepfather was a violent criminal, but his parents were two of the nicest people I ever knew. So somehow, these four nice people produced two sons who are the worst people you can imagine (my mom was attracted to that type) Maybe parenting doesn't produce reliable results?

Maybe your experience of having mean parents taught you sympathy because you remember being sad or anxious so you recognize those feelings in others. I often feel that people who had nice parents lack empathy and are judgemental because they don't understand how things like abuse or financial insecurity affect other people. I also think I understand other people's feelings well, because I was an anxious kid and used to watch people carefully. So maybe you were affected the same way.

Ya, I totally agree. Also, being raised around abuse, your sense of awareness about other people's behaviours are heightened. It's survival instinct. Not that I was physically abused daily but I definitely knew when to step away, be quiet, and do as I was told.. judging by the slightest change in mannerisms, voice tones, facial expressions, and body language. If I didn't I'd get yelled at or harmed in some way.. and often by the overbearing older sister. I'm definitely still in tuned now that it keeps me guarded from others. I notice when something is off and can always pick out when my partner is up to something sneaky. So far, 100% of the time I've been right but the suspected reasons haven't always been correct. I just notice behavioural differences and wonder what's going on. It's no fun.

I suddenly remembered an article I once read saying that the kids who were hated by narcissistic parents are better off in the long run than the "Golden Child" because they function better in the real world. That might be the difference.

My older sister was spoiled by our stepfather because she went along with whatever he wanted, helped him bully me, and even helped him commit crimes against people I liked. He flattered her, saying she was a genius and more intelligent and beautiful than all her peers. If she complained about someone, he would go yell at them.

My sister grew up really ignorant and perpetually outraged that the rest of the world doesn't recognize her "genius" or give her the special treatment she got from a bad parent. The slightest setback makes her say she wants to buy a gun to shoot people, because she feels small and powerless having to live and work like an ordinary person.

So that seems to be the alternate outcome. If you had been the golden child of a narcissist, you might have grown up as a copy of your narcissist parent without any EQ.

I think EQ is partially innate. I find it difficult to read other people's nonverbal cues. I do understand emotions, but it needs to be spelled out for me in words. A look or a tone of voice will not give me enough information. It's funny, because I am very book smart with a high IQ. And I think a high EQ would be more helpful in the real world.

I definitely never was the Golden Child. I remember reading that Golden Children have the hardest time believing their parent has NDP, even though they can acknowledge some of their behaviours.

My GC sister used to tell us, if "only" we were "nicer" to our mom, we would have a better relationship with her like she does. She still sings to this tune now, as an adult. She falls for my mother's victim role and often feels sorry for her.. and us sisters just need to "get our ***** together".. um, really? She, too, struggles with attention seeking behaviours. When she doesn't get the attention from my mom that she feels entitled to, she gets quite emotional about it. She's really an extension of her.. but I wouldn't classify her as NDP, as I would another sibling. She doesn't really have her own identity, though. She doesn't know herself well, has any interests or hobbies.. and can be quite insensitive to someone else's misfortunes.. or fakes it. I can't stand the fakeness.

It's too bad about your sister. How messed up she is from all that history.. and poor you, as well! Stay strong and believe in yourself and not let toxicity confuse you. Big hugs from my end!

So, now I'm questioning my partner who has a list of concerns that showcased itself before my existence. I don't think he has NDP but he definitely has issues around EQ. I was relieved when it was our counselor who pointed that out, through behavioural concerns I had in which he did not deny. But it's been said about NDP being a spectrum so now I don't know.

Hi MsLady,


Thank you for posting this thread.


I am sorry that you are experiencing this. I think you can trust your gut. If you feel something is off - there probably is something off. We trauma survivors are empaths = we become VERY good at detecting red flags and signs of potential abuse - because we have been through so much already. It is important to build confidence in your ability to discern real threat from not - and also acknowledge our own human fallibility from time to time.

I'll bet there is a reason why you posted this thread. I think that is a sign for you to listen to.


Reactive abuse is an extremely important topic - as you are right - it is part and parcel with Narcissistic abuse. But that doesn't necessarily mean it is linked solely to Narcissism. I think DARVO smear campaign tactics (Reactive Abuse) is a component of human nature - as it provides ideal abuse dynamics in almost all situations. It is all about power imbalances and shifting blame from perpetrator to victim. Bystanders will almost always believe those in power because they assume positions most ascribed to morals and ethics; priests, doctors, therapists, police, social workers, teachers, superiors at work, parents, etc.


I bet if we were to question everyone on the planet, that we could all relate on this level.


Sensitive people will react emotionally when triggered. Abusers usually find out what our vulnerabilities are - and they will masterfully poke and prod at them until we inevitable react. Unfortunately for a lot of us, we are unable to control the reactions because it is literally a normal reaction to abnormal circumstances; a hallmark of PTSD. Because trauma informed models are so slow to catch up in the mental health community - many people have been made victim to these abuses and remain silenced because others fail to recognize the signs of DARVO smear campaigns and blame shifting.


Someone mentioned the Narcissistic family dynamics - Golden Child / Scapegoat / triangulation, etc. I have an excellent link about this that I think you will all enjoy reading. Check it out and let me know what you think.

http://parenting.exposed/no-contact-...at-walks-away/

I hope everyone is staying safe.


Thanks,
HD7970ghz

Here are the 4 criterias of EQ (copied and pasted):

"Emotional intelligence is commonly defined by four attributes:

1) Self-management – You’re able to control impulsive feelings and behaviors, manage your emotions in healthy ways, take initiative, follow through on commitments, and adapt to changing circumstances.

2) Self-awareness – You recognize your own emotions and how they affect your thoughts and behavior. You know your strengths and weaknesses, and have self-confidence.

3) Social awareness – You have empathy. You can understand the emotions, needs, and concerns of other people, pick up on emotional cues, feel comfortable socially, and recognize the power dynamics in a group or organization.

4) Relationship management – You know how to develop and maintain good relationships, communicate clearly, inspire and influence others, work well in a team, and manage conflict."

So reading these, I'm not sure it's so innate..? Your personal response made me think about Autism Spectrum Disorder, as I have an adult son with high functioning Autism, and he, too, misses emotions. He understands them but you have to spell it out, as well.

I'm not suggesting you have Autism. I'm more curious as to why some people struggle in this area.. as it seems to be common with various spectrum disorders. I hope I'm not coming off the wrong way and offending? I'm sorry if I am. I just want to pick your brain, as someone who claims to have difficulties in this area.

It’s often learned behavior since childhood. Children of people with low social and emotional awareness turn out the same as their parents. Not always, but often. He likely grew up in a family that operated in that manner. Could be of course personality disorder. There are many out there and several overlap.

Just have to say that being very involved with your kids and being scout leaders doesn’t mean they had high EQ or were spectacular parents and so on.

The only way to diagnose him is for him to see a specialist. There are too many different factors that would make our assessment inaccurate.

He's a lot like his dad who grew up with trauma of his own. And although they were very supportive parents, I do believe his dad's past had an effect on all their children indirectly. I don't believe his dad was abusive or suffered a personality disorder.. although his jokes, too, are very dark and hurtful to others. They're a lot alike.

My partner also has MS. He's had MS throughout our entire relationship. Years before me he was a functional drug addict. He was charged with a $XXk theft. I didn't want to judge his past because he no longer was a drug addict (still to this day).. but when he shared with me his story, he was more concerned about my opinion of him. He has codependency issues (like his dad) and losing me over it was scary for him. I can't say he had any remorse over the victim, though. He said she wasn't very nice and said other negative things about her. Anyway, my point being.. I sometimes wonder if his personality issues is due to his MS (the yearly new lesions in the brain that could be altering his behaviours). But then he says he used to make his teachers cry in elementary school.. etc. So it's hard for me to think MS has anything to do with it, either.. or maybe a joint issue?

It's a puzzle I feel I need to solve in order to find peace within myself.. like I did with my NPD mother. If it can rid of my anger towards him, I can cope through whatever better..?

Thank you, divine, for spending so much time with me. I really appreciate your feedback. I truly feel isolated in my life .. no family, a challenging relationship, a special needs adult son, and 2 very young little girls. I'm stretched, emotionally, and am trying so hard to stay present and connected with my children.

Thank you for sharing!

Yes, I noticed the same thing in my family. Some people copy their parents' behavioral problems while thinking they are not like them at all. I just think they lack the imagination to do something different from what they see others do. That may also be low EQ. It's kind of like "My parents were wrong to yell at me when they were stressed, but it's ok for me to yell at you because my stress is real."

Without knowing the specifics, I think crimes often suggest lack of impulse control. I don't know if MS affects the frontal lobe, but frontal lobe issues affect impulse control and I think it's associated with self awareness and empathy in animals. I often wonder if some people in my family have issues with that as well as frequently trying to figure out if they have mental illnesses.

One thing that makes me suspect frontal lobe damage is when someone claims they are not responsible for things they have done because they blame it on circumstance or the victim. An example is when they feel sure they won't shove you during a high risk activity, then they see an unpleasant insect and nearly shove you to your death to get away from the bug. Then they swear it wasn't their fault and are completely certain they won't shove you again and think you are toxic for not trusting them. They also think it's not their fault if they forget safety rules, but hold others to a higher standard.

Another person in my family with poor impulse control keeps stealing money from people that he wants to keep as friends. He never feels it is his fault because he needed the money. Any money he gets, he loses on get-rich-quick schemes and has repeated this pattern for 40+ years without learning that it always ends badly. This person will yell and hit people when he is mad and say you forced him to hit you so he is the victim. My sister copies a lot of his behaviors and thinks she is not at all like him.

So if your ex does anything similar, I might suspect a frontal lobe issues but it could also any other mental illness. If he blames people for making him yell at them or if he ever shoved you or got physical (or towered over you while yelling) I'd be really careful because they often escalate to real violence and then claim that you coerced and manipulated them into it.

Good luck. I hope you have a decent lawyer on your side.

I didn’t realize you have adult son MsLady. this whole time I thought you were very young in your first relationship learning how to navigate parenting and questioning if your partner is abusive. Was your adult son’s father a good partner for you?

No, unfortunately I'm in my mid 40s. My son's dad (1st relationship) was abusive - physically, financially, emotionally, mentally.. he was a very jealous and controlling guy and a bully. When my son was born with a brain injury, we left his dad so I could focus on my baby's rehabilitation. I had $30 in my bank account and no job due to a move. I made it through. Went back to school and graduated with honors, won my court case, and landed a career that financially sustained us both with no financial support from his dad.

It's hard being in a similar position again, 20 years later. My world since has shrunk tremendously.. and for various reasons. I don't have a lot of start-up left. It's sad and I should have paid attention to my gut instincts at the start.

I was in a very vulnerable situation when I met my current partner (3rd relationship)- I had just left a marriage (2nd relationship), walked away from my toxic family, and at a time my son was going through his teenage years. I needed SOMEONE in my life to help pull me through, and my partner sounded promising. We'd known each other for almost 10 years before we started dating.. just in passing. He helped my son with his high school transition so I truly believed he had our best interest at heart. Now I'm questioning everything.

Impulse control.. he has ADHD. Then came MS when he was in his mid 30s. He was into drugs from his teen years and into his early 30s.. got rehabilitated. I'm sure his previous drug usage developed some brain injury on some level.

Yes, he blames everyone for things. He has to be right and win arguments and discussions even if he contradicts himself. His counselor said the same. He gets emotional sometimes and always wants to talk about his "feelings" rather than his "behaviours". As I've said, image is really important to him. He wants people to believe he's nice and funny.. and can be.. but often his "funny" is on the expense of someone else.

He will sabotage anyone's reputation if in return will make him more superior. He's competitive and competes against me. There's a deep rooted resentment against his sister whom he feels looks down on him. And maybe she does.. she's younger than he but talks to him like he's her little brother.

His behaviours towards me I feel is displaced. He's trying to maintain a reputation of a guy that made a turn around in his life. He still wears the "recovering" addict like a badge, even though it's been nearly 10 years now. I'm his accomplice (if I can even use this word correctly).. by helping him maintain his image as the "family man".. but throws me under the bus whenever he feels his image is being questioned.

It goes on..

Curious, what made you think this?

I am sad to hear that you keep choosing abusive men. Something has to happen to break this cycle. I hope you can see a good therapist. You deserve better. There’s help, you are intelligent and I believe you can finds ways to do it

The reason I thought you are very young: you make many excuses for your partners abusive behaviors and seem to question it (I had no idea you had abusive partners or any partners before) , you said you can’t afford to be on your own and he is the only provider (which could be because you stay at home mom, although it’s unusual in mid 40s because most people can’t really put a career on hold, that’s why I thought you might be right after high school), you are asking a lot of parenting questions and seem to be generally surprised to find out that it’s not good for young children to witness abusive behaviors. Sorry I don’t mean to offend, but to me you sounded like you are very inexperienced

Usually as women get older they’d not go for abusive men because they’ll see the signs. Younger girls don’t always recognize the signs.

Well even though you aren’t in early 20s as I mistakenly thought, you are still young. Mid 40s isn’t too late to turn your life around. But of course it is your choices.

By the way some of your partners abusive patterns could be explained by him being a drug addict even if he isn’t using heavy drugs now, he still uses drugs as he smokes pot a lot. Excessive marijuana use could cause many symptoms. There is pot induced psychosis and many more issues.

In addition him getting high regularly is something you can use in custody dispute. Even in states where pot is legal, routinely getting high around minor children isn’t something judge would look favorably at. You might have a shot at full custody with his drug use and abusive patterns

Good luck with everything