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Old 02-21-2019, 10:16 AM #11
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Default Re: Are men obsolete?

I agree that no one should vilify someone based on gender or paint over everything with a wide brush. But in particular- that thread- contains some seriously misogynistic things that I found offensive. I replied and then was advised that women are not allowed there so I deleted my post. I think it bothers me because so often its ok to complain about women in a very sexist way with offensive references to women destroying the family because we want equality(stereotype), not resigning ourselves to be satisfied with raising a family and being good wives (stereotype), Having a voice and opinion often seen as "bit**ing and whining (stereotype).

Here are a few tidbits:
Quote:
Like most radical groups their call for equality is actually a call for domination , and like other extremist groups , you ignore the nutters and let them get on with their sad insignificant existence .
Quote:
I have been treated so badly by modern feminists that I no longer want female friends. The abuse is unrelenting and they really can't do anything, ANYTHING better than men. They are petty and too emotionally driven. Frankly, the patrimony they are seeking to destroy was a much, much better world for everyone. There is no law that says a woman has to get married and start a family. I hope that laws protecting men's rights are passed because they are really needed.
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Men are not obsolete........itís just that radical feminists think they are just as equal to men in ways that are just not true. They are the ones who are destroying the nucleus of the family which holds civilization together.
Raising a family and taking care of children is probably one if not the hardest job in the world. The feminists have trivialized that role. We all have ď rolesĒ to playin life. People in general, men and women , make the false assumption that we are all equal. Maybe as basic human beings , but thatís where it ends. We are not all equal. Thatís reality. I donít like seeing any human being mistreated.
Male or female. Want to end here with this statement, ď women already rule the world , and they know it. ď
I am not saying that there are no stereotypes about men and that men do not suffer, but I am saying that male opinions are not automatically chalked up to them being too emotional and therefore invalid. Men are not usually told what they should expect and want in life, or accused of destroying the family unit. Feminism is demonized- like in order for someone to be a feminist they have to want to make men obsolete, dominate the world, and take everything away from men.
Statistically speaking men have always had the advantage in just about everything. I love men. I am a "housewife". I went to college and got a BA in Lit but stopped working when I had kids. I stayed home with them and I still cook dinner every night. I am responsible for the family schedule and making appointments. Hell I pack my husband's lunch for him everyday even though he is perfectly capable of doing it himself. I do these things because I want to. My kids are now 23,19 and 15 and I am facing the fact that I have no professional career for myself and deciding if I want to go back to school to be a teacher. I chose to make my family my priority but my husband wouldn't even blink if I stopped packing his lunch or relegated some of the 'wifely' things to him.
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Old 02-21-2019, 01:19 PM #12
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Question Re: Are men obsolete?

I checked that thread and found it just-not-very-interesting. However... since we are taking about misogyny I would appreciate some PC advice. If you were having an interesting and amicable discussion on chat with another woman which would closed down by a male moderator who wouldn't say why he objected to the discussion - but later complained in the forums about women being bossy...

I heard that mods on PC tend to be authoritarian (it was a man who told me this) and that there are a couple of misogynist male mods...

The woman who I was discussing with on chat backed off and left and I left after her.

I'm not making "an issue" of this. I'm simply asking how more experienced members of PC would deal so that I can be empowered. Personally at first I was upset by the allegation that male mods here are misogynistic - I assumed that there must be some personal antagonism involved - but then I was upset by being blindsided by a male who later described himself in the forums as hating bossy women.

On one hand I respect that there are tmembers who dedicate far more time to this site than I will ever do, and I think that they can moderate however they want and good luck to them. I won't dedicate more time because I need a different type of openness in discussion.

On the other hand I think that - women or men - who are mods need to own their stuff somehow.

Yes, there are back issues and personal antagonisms, and work in progress.

I haven't been back to chat. For me participating in chat was a way to share light-hearted stuff with others so that the deep problems could be laid to rest for an hour or two. It could also lead to genuine exchanges about complex issues. If I can't be allowed to exchange with another women because a male mod has an undisclosed issue with what we were discussing or how we were discussing it...

If the mods are supporting each other...

The problem for me is the undisclosed issue. If a mod told me "this is triggering" I'd be sympathetic.

I suppose this isn't a man vs women thing generally, yet how do you women deal with a man who has, for private reasons, huge resentment against women? If there is no acknowledgement that is driving the intervention?

It could equally have been the other way round: a female mod who resents men. How would you challenge that? Is there some gender-neutral way to say, "Hey, if you could just acknowledge what you are projecting... & etc"?

P.S. This is a genuine question to more experience women members here. Not about "winning", more about how do we challenge the complexity of projecting on the opposite gender. Do we challenge it? When the virulence is at its most passionate, do we... back off, or sympathise, or say "I'm not that kind-of woman"?
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Old 02-21-2019, 01:23 PM #13
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Default Re: Are men obsolete?

I don't think it's a gender issue in my case (I am female), but it does seem to me that some people are openly resentful of mods. I really try my best not to hurt anyone's feelings or trigger anyone (although avoiding triggers can be almost impossible).
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Old 02-21-2019, 01:39 PM #14
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Default Re: Are men obsolete?

Quote:
Originally Posted by downandlonely View Post
I don't think it's a gender issue in my case (I am female), but it does seem to me that some people are openly resentful of mods. I really try my best not to hurt anyone's feelings or trigger anyone (although avoiding triggers can be almost impossible).
Thanks DownandLonely, but I'm not sure how avoiding triggering someone is possible if you have asked if there is a problem and they don't make you aware that they have been triggered. It wasn't an obviously triggering sort of discussion, more of a sensitive exploring.


And you are right that peeps can be against mods. That's why I dismissed the whole thing. I'm the sort of person who thinks that everyone has a good and bad side to them, don't hide in a cupboard and pretend otherwise.



But my question is generally - how do more experienced women deal with men who have a history which makes them reactive to women - or with women who have a history which makes them reactive to men?
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Old 02-21-2019, 01:58 PM #15
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Default Re: Are men obsolete?

P.S. Sarahsweets - in my city we have a feminist discussion group led by a man. I feel confused by this, because he is hard core about "making" other men who might attend the meetings "adhere to the principles of feminism". I am so scared that I might put a foot wrong myself that I haven't yet attended the discussion, only some of the movies. I have been too scared to ask him why he does this.


But it is interesting, and it makes me remember real feminist times when my peers were all experimenting with gender and sexual identities.


I'm not sure whether you are blaming men that you stayed at home and brought up your children. Seems to me that my own personal life choices came down to chance just as much as gender inequalities. I suppose people could say that I'm not emotional enough for a woman - blaming me for being unlike the stereotype. I don't have enough of the female role stereotype thingy for men to admire me as a woman?

Seems like we all get cornered by stereotypes whether we inadvertently correspond or don't correspond - but then I've been blessed to know so many un-stereotypical women in my life.

It does get tricky when you become parents of children, however.


Most of my life has conditioned by nothing more fancy than the need for "a roof over my head and bread on the table".
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Old 02-21-2019, 06:02 PM #16
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Default Re: Are men obsolete?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelinglady View Post
.I hope the stereotypical chest-beating, emotionally clueless man is becoming obsolete, but I sure wouldn't want to live in a world without men.What are your thoughts?
Well if you have to ask the question you probably know the answer.

I think they are - not all of course. Perhaps I am also talking about stereotypical chest-beating as well. It seems to me that men are suffering from not being able or knowing how to change. They gave women the power to vote (and remember this is just 100 years old) and the power to work (and remember this is less than that) and yet, they seem to want the exact same women from 1924.

I would ask -- objectively - what do men objectively bring to the table anymore.

- cash from a job? Well most of the men I know are not really doing that.
- kids? Well a lot of women don't want that anymore and frankly they don't want kids because they know the husband won't help raise them.
- protection? Well honestly, do men really provide that? I think it is a total toss up -- and do we really need that that much?
- companionship? Well, probably not. We all know how many men cheat and leave the woman for a younger model.
- do women really need sex? Not like guys do. And do men really provide *good* sex? Yes maybe some do but imho, not a lot of them. Frankly, it just seems like in years past men did actually go to prostitutes to learn how to have sex but today that is frowned on so a generation of guys don't really know those skills and have to practice on you.

Most guys I know refuse to accept they will have to change or make themselves marketable to women and yet still expect to get a prime candidate as a wife. They just aren't being realistic.

If they don't want to change at all, fine, but you shouldn't expect women to be lining up for you. Personally I am tubby and bossy and I don't expect any guy to be interested in me anymore.

If men don't get wise and stop this idea that just because they exist they are entitled to the thin manic pixy girl -- women are just going to opt out. And yes, they will be obsolete.
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Old 02-21-2019, 07:11 PM #17
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Default Re: Are men obsolete?

Interesting discussion. I'm hesitant to talk about moderators, though, since that's counterproductive to this site. As was said, it is a volunteer job. People are asked if they want to be one. And some people turn it down because it is time-consuming and yes, some members resent them. It's a tough job.

I have been a moderator and saw no evidence of any bias toward men or women when I served. I don't know why a female conversation was shut down, but honestly I doubt it was a sexist reason. Please, let's not talk about that any more. Any-hoo--back to men in general....

I think some men are threatened by strong women--and I fear some feminism is anti-men in general. I think both men and women should help with child-rearing. The days are over when men work and just come home to watch TV.

But I switched to part-time work when my first child was born--by choice. It's not fair to children to have them and then foist them on to nannies and babysitters.

I don't like the part of the male discussion that said women are not equal to men. They ARE equal--the only way they are different is "women gestate, lactate, and menstruate" (quote from a book I used in a course on "The Psychology of Women.") And on average, men are physically stronger than women.

All that said, I think females AND males are important, and not just for procreation. In any marriage or long-term live-in relationship, the couple needs to talk about expectations. My husband helped with the children and did some cooking. He also does the business matters such as paying bills. I "keep the home fires" burning by organizing, planning our social schedule,
etc.

Historically (I'm thinking Judaism and some other religions and cultures), women are considered to be inferior. I say, what would the world do without us? But it is somewhat true that "the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world."

To be blunt, I think some men are angry that women control sexual access. We aren't just here on Earth to service their physical needs--but to be an equal partner, enjoying sex together as part of a way of showing love. Not pornographic floozies....The day IS over when men think they should just keep their wives barefoot and pregnant. That kind of man is becoming obsolete, as Emily said.
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Old 02-21-2019, 08:20 PM #18
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Default Re: Are men obsolete?

The male thread does sound like men who are frustrated with their experiences with women venting. I didnít read it. Itís better not to look.

Thereís always been a battle of the sexes. Probably since the cave men, when men did provide and protect and were very needed for survival. They probably didnít treat their women as well as they should and there was probably resentment.

Judaism does not consider women inferior. It does encourage traditional roles though, yes sexist. Probably for survival... be fruitful and multiply.

I got married and had kids and raised them myself because I wanted to. My mom did and I wanted to do what she did, I suppose. I feel like I am the last of my kind...like being a stay at home mom is unacceptable for young women today?

I loved it, though. So did my kids.
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Old 02-21-2019, 10:03 PM #19
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Okay, I stand corrected about Judaism. I'm thinking about some of the Old Testament practices, but I won't argue the point.
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Old 02-22-2019, 01:56 AM #20
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Default Re: Are men obsolete?

I do find that the generation of men over 40 say have a history of emotional cluelessness that they inherited from the previous generation of males.


I don't say that disparagingly at all. The separated roles that previous generations led made women more emotional and men more logical. I'm saying it because I have a few male friends in their 50s and 60s who are great fun, but who suffer emotionally. They socialise in a context of male buddies who are the same. They respect women, but they don't respect themselves unless they can be macho together. The places where they talk to other men are alcohol related.

That's a loss socially. I think some "non-Western" traditions have forms of male mentoring: "initiations", or other markers of passage for men. The West had forms of service with moral codes like the Boy Scouts - that's as far as we go with mentoring?
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